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Camo and ghost synchro

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arkhos94, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    We had the following situation in tournament on sunday :
    - An antipode and his strelok are camoed
    - The antipode shoot but the strelok can't (no target in LoF) and so perform idle
    - The antipode is decamoed, but the strelok ?

    The ruling was : the strelok stay camoed (I don’t agree)

    Reading the wiki, camo is cancelled by declaration of a BS attack :

    A trooper's Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever: The Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert).

    And ghost synchro force both trooper to declare the same order :

    The Controller and the G: Synchronized trooper must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order. However, it is not compulsory that they have the same target.
    If either trooper is not able to perform the Order (whether the Entire Order or both Short Skills of the Order), then that trooper will perform an Idle, while the other trooper will perform his complete Order normally.

    So the strelok has to declare a BS attack (and uncamo) then he can only perform idle. Is that it ?

    Follow up question : do we get the same result with Scylla as the strelok, a bot as the antipode and both cybermasked
     
  2. UNDRHiver

    UNDRHiver 2154-HWLL-SFPM-3677

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    I would say idle is a short movement skill which is allowed for staying camoed
     
  3. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I find it hard to keep track of whether you declare idle or execute idle when you are forced into an illegal skill when activating multiple models simultaneously.
     
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  4. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    If I were to guess. I would say that on declaration they are both revealed – but because he can't execute the order he performs an idle instead. It would follow the same idea as a coordinated order with a trooper who cannot execute a specific part of the order. from the wiki:

    "To see what happens when one of the coordinated troopers is unable to carry out one of the Skills declared, we will go back to the previous example of 3 Fusiliers and 1 Orc Troop against a Raicho.

    After selecting the Orc Troop as Spearhead and declaring the first Short Skill of the Order, Movement, the player measures and moves her four troopers. The Raicho declares its ARO, and it becomes apparent that there is no LoF between the TAG and one of the Fusiliers. In spite of this, the PanOceanian player declares a BS Attack against the Raicho with the second Short Skill of the Coordinated Order. The Fusilier without LoF will simply be unable to open fire. Specifically, the Fusilier does not perform the declared BS Attack, and just stands there instead. However, the Fusilier has been activated and for the purposes of ARO generation has declared the BS Attack the same as his comrades."
     
  5. UNDRHiver

    UNDRHiver 2154-HWLL-SFPM-3677

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    Yes, I agree

    Anyway, idle is finally the short movement skill replacing the illegal skill when needed

    in this case, I would ignore the original declaration and I would consider which is the actual ARO spent by strelok
     
  6. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    careful.
    1. In OP's description, he described the strelok/antipode as the active turn player. AROs or lack there of doesn't apply here.

    2. Idle is not an ARO.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Idle
    This can cause a lot of confusion for a number of reasons. if you don't want to forgo your Camo in ARO, simply don't declare an ARO.
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    One of the cancellation clauses of Camouflaged is Declaring a skill.

    G: Sync troopers must Declare the same skills, even if they can't perform it and it gets changed to Idle.

    So declaring BS Attack with the Strelok will cancel Camouflaged for both (in the Active turn anyway)
     
  8. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    More importantly, one of the G:Sync examples is a set of models declaring BS Attack even though only one of the models can perform the BS Attack.


    Let's see what could happen if the situation was different. The Auxilia Calvin, with his back against the exterior wall of a small building, sends his little Auxbot "Hobbes" towards one of the building's corners while he goes towards the opposite corner. So, the first Short Skill of the Order is declared (Move) activating both figures, who move in different directions. When arriving at the end of his movement, Calvin doesn't see any enemies. Meanwhile, "Hobbes" when arriving at the corner faces two Alguaciles who both declare a BS Attack ARO against the Remote. With the second Short Skill, "Hobbes" declares a BS Attack with its Heavy Flamethrower, placing the Large Teardrop Template over the two Alguaciles. Meanwhile, Calvin declares he will perform a BS Attack too. Although he has no target in LoF, it's required that he declares a BS attack to allow "Hobbes" to perform its BS Attack (see Graphic).


    You don’t ignore the declaration when it’s impossible to perform, even though the model ends up performing Idle. Because of situations like this, or models in visibility zones.
     
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  9. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    This all gets confusing and complicated because there are a number of similar-but-different situations that don't necessarily resolve the same way.

    For example, I know that when the fireteam leader declares BS attack, it does not reveal any holoprojector troops that are in the same fireteam. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the same is the case for a camouflaged g:sync pair or a coordinated order involving both camouflaged and non-camouflaged troops.
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The cancellation clauses are the same, Declaration of anything other than Cautious Move or a Short Movement Skill that does not involve a dice roll.

    Move + BS Attack will reveal a Holo1 trooper in a Fireteam, A Camouflaged Strelok and it's K9, or an Impersonator in a coordinated order, or any variation of the above.
     
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  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I disagree.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Holoprojector#Holoprojector_L1_and_Fireteam_Example:

    Holoprojector L1 and Fireteam Example:

    A Fireteam Core of Janissaries with a Hafza in Holoprojector L1 state imitating a Janissary, declares a Move + BS Attack Order. The Hafza, who is not the Team Leader, moves and provides support to the Team Leader, which is considered an Idle. As this Short Movement Skill doesn't require a Roll, the Hafza is not revealed, and so remains in the Holoprojector L1 state.

    However, in the following Order, the Team Leader declares Dodge, so all the Fireteam members make a PH Roll. In this situation, the Hafza is revealed automatically.
     
  12. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Strange, the language is the same as Coordinated orders or Ghost: Synchronized

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fireteams_in_the_Active_Turn

    • However, all members of a Fireteam must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order or Entire Order as the Team Leader.
    Any Short Skills of the Order, or Entire Order, a Fireteam member cannot perform are considered an Idle. However, troopers will perform the Short Skills of that Order they are able to perform. In this situation, the other Fireteam members will perform their Order normally.
     
  13. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure in a similar situation for coordinated orders where the group declares BS Attack but one camo model has no LOF it is revealed, so I would say the Strelok is revealed.

    I think Holo deliberately works in a different way, particularly Holo 1, because it is not a marker state.
     
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  14. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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  15. UNDRHiver

    UNDRHiver 2154-HWLL-SFPM-3677

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    you are right, missaddressed by me; strealok idled in active turn

    I continue to think that the short movement skill idle is the actual skill performed by strelok and that it should be considered for determining the camo status
     
  16. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The Camouflaged State is pretty clear that it's cancelled by what skill you Declare, rather than what skill is performed.
     
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  17. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    It's not about what he's performing – but what he's declaring.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged

    The first bullet point
     
  18. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree with you on the camo. So why doesn't a Holo1 troop reveal when his fireteam declares shoot and he idles?
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    That's a good question, the example given seems to contradict the rules. Possibly a case of examples being brought over from N2.
     
  20. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    It is a good question. To me, it seems like it is an exception that isn't fully fleshed out in any of the cancelation clauses or Holo 1 state.