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C1: Stacking Dodge Penalties

Discussion in 'Rules' started by TheDiceAbide, Apr 29, 2020.

  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    No, that would be one single MOD, with three different triggers, like in N3.

    The Dodge MODs are three separate MODs, each of which can be applied, for a potential -9.
     
  2. Blakhart

    Blakhart Active Member

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    What?! LMAO... wow... okay...
    Okay, THAT, is my biggest dislike from C1 so far...

    I don't understand why would it be such a huge change from a set of MODs no one (that I know of) complained about? I never heard anyone saying "Man, if only I could get -9 for shooting someone out of LoF AND with a Template out of LoF, from a Mine that is out of LoF!" This game sux haxxorz!" Haha...
    Those working like that make no sense.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    How do you stack 1 and 3?

    Deployable Weapons are not Active Troopers.
     
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  4. Blakhart

    Blakhart Active Member

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    LoL, I don't know... He said all three for a potential -9, I have no idea about any of this anymore haha...
    I'm about to go back to playing video games, lol...
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This question. I'm still waiting to hear if I'm correct or not that "active trooper in ZoC" is a universal MOD that applies to any Dodge (unlike the mine's MOD that applies only to the comparison to avoid the mine specifically)
     
  6. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    I think the imagined situation is like this:
    upload_2020-5-3_5-43-28.png
    Where 1 is a mine, and 2 is a Jujak, while the blue trooper is Fusilier Angus.
    If poor Angus tries to dodge, he would get -6 to his Success Value versus Jujak's HFT, and -9 vs the mine. ON THE SAME ROLL. So, if he rolls a 2, he would dodge HFT (10-6= SV 4), but will eat shrapnel from the mine and will have to make a Saving Roll.

    EDIT: To clarify - I think such mod stacking is absolute bovine feces, and makes already strong troopers (warbands to be more exact) even stronger. Like, if this stays in N4, I foresee BAN (insert warband name) threads every game day. Like, just imagine ChainRifle Myrmidons in this reality.
     
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  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The example on Page 65 (Zanshi Dodging vs Mine and Fusi) shows that would be a Dodge with 2 different Success Values, one at -6 and one also at -6 (because the Mine is not an Active Trooper, so I'm assuming IJW mispoke).

    Honestly, I don't mind this change.

    It doesn't actually help Warbands that much (usually they use their templates within LOF of the target); it mostly helps marker state troops with DTWs (ie in Code One anything with a Shotgun) as it can be stacked with Surprise Attack for a -9 MOD.

    Mostly I see it as providing clarity to the fact N3 had hidden clauses about which MODs stacked and which didn't.

    I am curious to see how it works with Intuitive Attack (if nothing else changes it will be BS Attack back at -6 or Dodge at -3).
     
  8. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    If you take a look back at the table, the clauses go from the top and stack, according to what IJW says. So,
    Jujak:
    • Active Trooper is within ZoC and outside of LoF? Yes, -3 to Dodge to Angus.
    • Dodging a Template from outside of LoF? Yes, additional -3 to Dodge to Angus.
    • Dodgind a Template from a Deployable Weapon? No.
    Final SV vs Jujak = 4.

    Mine:
    • Active Trooper is within ZoC and outside of LoF? Yes, Active Trooper (Jujak) fulfills this condition, so -3 to Dodge to Angus.
    • Dodging a Template from outside of LoF? Yes, additional -3 to Dodge to Angus.
    • Dodgind a Template from a Deployable Weapon? Yes, additional -3 to Dodge to Angus.
    Final SV vs Mine = 1.

    EDIT: And as for your situation with Intuitive Attack, I would say this would be -6 to shoot back or -6 to Dodge - Smoke blocks LoF, and an attack through smoke does not grant the target LoF. See Zero Visibility Zone rules:
    • Any trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into or out of a Zero Visibility Zone, or whose LoF traverses a Zero Visibility Zone, may respond to the attacker even without LoF, provided the trooper is facing the attacker.
    • However, without a clear LoF to his target, the trooper's ARO (or second Short Skill of his Order in Active Turn) options are reduced to BS Attack with a -6 MOD or Dodge without the MOD.
     
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  9. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    Yeah you stack all three by the first mod applying to the entire dodge roll. The statement doesn't say the source of the attack triggers the first mod, only that the active trooper is in ZoC but not LoF. The wording on the mods or dodge could all be improved a bit to make sure they're accurate to what they say.

    Edit: exactly as @LZ35SRX says.
     
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Fair point, didn't catch the first MOD being phrased generically; and you're right about it being potentially a -6 to Dodge for the Intuitive Attack.

    That being said, I'm fairly confident that negative MODs are only applied against the user that generated them. (From the grey box on Page 60 on how MODs work).

    But I am not at all certain.
     
  11. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I think in a better world, the phrase:
    ► As an exception to this, in the following cases the Dodge requires a PH-3 Roll to avoid an Attack with a Template Weapon:
    would be replaced by
    "Apply -3 MODs to the Dodge roll for each of the following:"
    since the example does demonstrate those two modifiers being independent.

    Calling it a "PH-3" roll makes it sound like being in both conditions would not combine to become PH-6.
    Edit: Left out a "not" in that last sentence. The point being that "PH-3" sounds like a fixed thing, not a cumulative thing.
     
    #51 solkan, May 3, 2020
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
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  12. Blakhart

    Blakhart Active Member

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    LoL, I finally get why this works the way it does, haha...

    So going to the First point, if all you need as the Target model to gain the -3 MOD is to be in the ZoC of the Attacker and not having LoF to the Attacker... If Hacking, a Comms Attack, would you be able to get behind the Target and out LoF and be able to apply the same -3 from the First Bullet point?


    EDIT: Somehow I forgot about Reset... Ignore.
     
    #52 Blakhart, May 4, 2020
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It only applies if they Dodge. But yes without text clearly saying that "negative MODs are only applied to Skill tests against the enemy that generated those MODs" then you get this weird effect.

    So say you have an enemy Trooper in IMM-A, you move a Camo Marker to within ZOC and Surprise Attack Carbonite it then it would be a Normal roll Dodge at -6 PH and a Normal roll Carbonite on flat WIP.

    I can't tell whether that's intended or not.
     
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  14. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Wow, better discover that Marker that is trying to run in your backfield.
    Do I see it right that you can't turn around against such an attacks either if you fail your dodge rolls constantly?
     
  15. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    That's the same as N3 if you fail your Change Facing. Guts will probably be back in N4, but it's way too fiddly for C1. (Plus I hope they clean it up some for N4)
     
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  16. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    In N3, you could turn around once you made your armor roll.
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Only if you didn't ARO.
     
  18. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, I might have played that wrong all the years, lol. Maybe it just didn't happen that often.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I believe it got officially addressed recently (on a geological scale)
     
    #59 Mahtamori, May 5, 2020
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  20. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Was this the thing where the quick start rules said that you could, but the N3 rules didn't mention it? Can't recall how that was resolved...
     
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