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C1: Stacking Dodge Penalties

Discussion in 'Rules' started by TheDiceAbide, Apr 29, 2020.

  1. Blakhart

    Blakhart Member

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    Okay. I was thinking purely for C1.
     
  2. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I believe so is the small if you're at the extreme end of it.
     
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  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Yes, it is, just.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So, correct me if I'm wrong, because I find the first paragraph very confusing (" upload_2020-4-30_19-48-2.png ").

    It's specifically the Active Trooper acting inside the ZoC this is referring to, correct? It has no concept of "the attacker" and since the mine doesn't count as an active trooper, that is the reason for Dodge not receiving a penalty from the first paragraph in the example where the Zhanshi is dodging the Fusilier and a mine?
    My brain would like some fluff text justification here for some reason. Maybe "if the Active Trooper is inside the ZoC and outside LoF, the Reactive Trooper will be distracted and suffer a -3 PH MOD to any Dodge roll they make" (I presume this is one of the MODs that will stack universally while the other two don't)

    E.g. If you have a mine behind you and an enemy trooper with a Shotgun behind you and they shoot you with template mode you will have
    -9 versus the Mine because; no LOF to attacker, concealed weapon, and enemy distracting you.
    -6 versus the Shotgunner because; no LOF to attacker and enemy distracting you.

    P.s. oh, wow, it's almost impossible to copy-paste the text in this PDF...
     
  5. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    I worry calling out a fluff reason for it would just confuse things more. And is point #1 supposed to be universal or only as it pertains to the active trooper?

    In your example, wouldn't dodging the Mine be on a -6 as that interaction fulfills case #2 and #3 (#2 dodging a template weapon without LoF, and #3 dodging the template of a Deployable weapon), but not #1 since the mine isn't an "active trooper"?

    So for your example, you'd be -6 to dodge the mine (#2 & #3), and -6 to dodge the shotgun (#1 & #2).
    At least that's how I'm reading it.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, I mean, that's why I'm asking. I don't know, so I'm asking if I'm reading it right. The extra description of the action is there to reinforce what I think it means to say...
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Just for clarity:

    Alice declares BS Attack with a HFT at Bob. Bob does not have LOF to Alice
    Bob Dodges
    Alice idles

    If Alice was outside Bob's ZOC it's a -3 MOD to Bob's Dodge but if Alice was inside Bob's ZOC it's a -6 MOD to Bob's Dodge?
     
  8. Valmiir

    Valmiir Member

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    Yikes. It certainly looks that way. I hope this was an oversight.
     
  9. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if it's an oversight, it seems like that's what was intended.

    I imagine it would be harder to dodge a flamethrower or shotgun the closer you were to the source, especially if coming from behind you.

    It's definitely a buff to template weapons, which they arguably may have needed. And a welcome one if shotguns retain their DTW mode in N4.

    I'd really like to know if that first point (I keep wanting to say bullet, but they aren't) under the dodge MODs about the active trooper activating in ZoC without LoF is cumulative with any FtF rolls not involved with that model.

    It'll likely be rare, but the mine scenario is definitely one.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think it's intentional because normally with guns you don't get to make a meaningful ARO when someone is messing around inside your ZoC - Dodge on -3 is terrible to FTF something with high MODs that also rolls, but it's not anywhere near as terrible if your opponent isn't rolling like with DTWs.
     
  11. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    DTW were already great outside of lof because the worst case scenario was just do no damage. If there was any area where they needed a buff it would be inside lof where you give your target a free normal roll on you. I think they were fine before, I don't know that this buff is needed if 5 pt DTW models make it into N4.
     
  12. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I think they did this make sure how superduper dangerous it is to be attacked by a template weapon outside your LOF and inside your ZOC. This is definately a bump to AD shotgun troops. And seems to be an indirect nerf to SMGs as below 8" is a crazy place.
     
  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    My hope is that what are effectively buffs to DTWs will translate to cost increases that reflect the new capabilities, and 5 point troops won't exist anymore.

    While getting shot in the back is still bad news, the new dodge rules do give the reactive model a lot more ability to recover if they do pass their roll.
     
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  14. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

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    Funny, what weirds me out about the template weapon without LoF -3 MOD and the deployable weapons -3 MOD is that the reasoning for the latter is likely that one can't see the mine so well, and it's weird to apply both.

    I'd prefer if one couldn't have LoF to deployable weapons – removing the need for the latter rule, and that minesweeper would work like Jammers, removing the need for LoF. This would streamline the rules and simultaneously make minesweepers more important. (I know, no more shooting at mines, but I _think_ that's rather rare)
     
  15. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

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    Measuring the case of point 1 (in ZoC, no Lof) and 2 (Template Weapon, no LoF) occurring together could get rather fiddly with the 0.5" (small teardrop) and 2.5" (large teardrop). I think it would be helpful to mark the areas on the templates where one incurs a -3 MOD to Dodge on the target on the template itself (the part from start to 8" out, "No LoF: -3 MOD").
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    You don't have to measure them at the same time. You can put the template down to check range, and then separately use a tape measure to check ZoC. In fact, since ZoC is measured from nearest point to nearest point, but templates originate from a single point on the shooter's base, it's probably possible to have cases where you're barely touching the tip of the small teardrop template while still being within ZoC.
     
  17. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

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    I see your point and you are right, certainly, but I am going more for "streamlined", ie. one measurement, with the information right there on the template. So the goal was being able to measure just once, for ease of use and comfort's sake.

    This does not invalidate the idea of the template – if the shooter shoots from the left hip, and the target is just barely outside the markings, then it's time to pull out the tape measure. The template could also include the -3 MOD for deployables, as a note, to help new players especially.
     
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  18. Blakhart

    Blakhart Member

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    I thought IJW meant they are Independent and they DON'T stack?
     
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's not allowed by the rules.

    The template is placed at Declaration (ie during Step 1-4) but you only measure ZOC at Step 5 Resolution.

    Unless I missed a change?
     
  20. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

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    You haven't missed a change.
    But in our meta, we basically know the length of the templates (just under 8.5" and just under 10.5"), so we're basically measuring anyway with these (and vice versa – if I guess about 8", I'll assume the small template will hit). If the other trooper is just being scratched with the small teardrop template for example we'll have to check in detail.
    Also, just like in the first 40k set, I'd put the markings only on one side, so you can declare and flip it over at step 5, to see the modifiers.
     
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