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Byebye Voronin - (B4ckd00r Crisis)

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Contaminator, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

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    Unless I play LI, I would never ever take him over two Line Kazaks...
    I look forward the redesign!
     
  2. Wulverdron

    Wulverdron Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to think of buffs or redesigns that would make Voronin usable. Its not exactly easy.

    I'm presuming you keep Guard L(X) (the sculpt exists, you can't return the existing models) and Strategos L1 (why else would you take a low-stat Lt character in Ariadna?). Changing him to have a G:Sync antipode would be counterproductive because then he couldn't go in a link once TAK drops.

    The baseline, I think, would be to upgrade his SSL2 to Veteran L2, so at least he has as many active wounds as the two Line Kazaks he out-prices. Maybe he needs a second wound, as well? Something to at least pretend that he can survive a first turn impersonator strike.
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Funny how Andromeda's "bloated" skillset boils down to "forward observer with B1 that cannot mark" (specialist operative with Flash pulse in all profiles) and "martial arts 3 using other table", plus the more independent Kinematics N2, Mimetism, Forward Deployment 1 and NWI.

    Voronin is... "I will hide under this rock, and give you 2 orders instead of my regular". It saves about 15-16 points from the Camo Scout Lt + 10pts grunt that I think would be the cheapest (non SWC intensive) Lt option and another regular order (plus the extra spot it takes)
     
  4. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    Still, even with vet L2, why take him? He is still obvious lt, not that hard to kill. Just take 2 kazaks and save points...it's not that he brings anything to the table. Also, enemy will probably have to spend more orders to remove 2 kazaks tahn even vet L2 voronin, and when he removes him, you not only lost your LT, but you also lost 2 orders with a single strike.
    Bonuses he brings are so small, and drawbacks so big, and on top of that you pay way too much for him...make him 15pts and I might take him,lol(kazak+volounter price, 2 orders, and nice big template)
     
  5. Wulverdron

    Wulverdron Well-Known Member

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    My point was that you have to give him 2 wounds or NWI just to make him as vaguely useful as 2 Line Kazaks. As you say though, its not even close to making him an actual choice.

    Maybe if he had some sort of new Strategos LX, which gave an extra order even if he was't the Lt? ..I don't know, I'm just trying to think of literally any design that would give a reason to take him.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Just a reminder as it may have been missed in the page rollover - the temporarily-banned characters are NOT getting a makeover.
     
  7. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Which brings another point - what kind of temporary bonus will it take to bring likes of Voronin and Andromeda onto the table, and that at the same time will make as much sense on cheerleading Voronin as it is on active Tarik?
     
    #27 Barrogh, Apr 4, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
    Wulverdron likes this.
  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

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    And it is only for a couple of months.
     
  9. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    If he gave extra order even if he wasn't lt, why take him? You can get cheaper orders elsewhere. And buffing him defense/offense wise still wouldn't do any good because, okay, now he grants 2 orders, while being a bit tougher and not being lt, but why even risk him in gunfight, where he is barely any better than kazak, and loose 2 orders?
    You have your offensive pieces and you cheerleaders, which you want mostly to be cheap and somewhere safe.

    To me, I would only use him if he was cheap enough. But paying more and having disadvantage on top of it is simply pointless. Especially considering that you also pay a lot for our mediocre CoC option.
     
  10. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    G:Synch actually already has the exception clause "unless specified otherwise" on the end, so by including him in the special fireteam you're already bypassing that.
    Assuming that everyone pulled comes back with the same bonus rule, allow some more points of soldiers of fortune to those units representing the aid provided by O12 in their exoneration maybe? Nothing huge, just 25 points or so, enough to bring Mushashi or a Druze KHD but not enough to allow the huge offensive mercs like Togan or the more attractive specialist options like KTS or Avicenna etc, or maybe even just allow them to use the optional 75 points at reduced SWC or something.
     
  11. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Because of 11 order group, I guess? The problem is that being in LoL ASAP isn't an adequate price for an extra order in the group, but ~11 pts per order is still below what most pay for that, and well, you aren't getting too many volunteers in vanilla/TAK, so there's that, I guess.
     
  12. Kreslack

    Kreslack See you Space Cowboy...

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    I'm extremely dissapointed that they decided not to give updates once we get the characters back. Seems like a huge missed opportunity to tune up some underused characters.

    I had a long discussion today with my friend Hiereth about guard being mostly pointless. Its just worse MA and even though it doesn't give stealth one of the only two models with it get stealth anyway. I'd honestly like to see the ability just condensed down to one buff. +1 B +1 DAM just like having an extra friendly model in CC. It is really strong but the two models with it aren't CC monsters. And getting that benefit will help them more defensively than offensively since the don't really have great ways to get into CC in the first place. Then you don't have to g sync anything they just have their extra friend on the base with them.

    We also brought up things to add to Andromeda to make her more appealing than her competition. Flavorful idea I came up with is getting an upgrade to a 4-8 MOV. Since they are already clearly implying that she rides her cyber doggy anyhow (forward deployment L1) Now it's just reflected with extra fast double move option. I'm actually kind of surprised they haven't made any profiles yet with a faster second MOV value.

    Fingers still crossed we've been told lies and we will still see some units tweaks.
     
    emperorsaistone, sarf and Barrogh like this.
  13. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    11pts below what most pay for order is irrelevant when you can get it for 9pts AVA total. That extra order MIGHT come nice in 10 order group, but considering drawbacks like obvious lt who is easy to kill, hard to move&hide him...it's simply not worth it.
     
  14. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    Since there is so much discontent about Voronin's current profile:

    I used him in a LI tournament a while back and finished 2nd.
    First turn LT kill only really happens in the following scenario: your opponent has an impersonator / sup. infiltrator, which you didn't expect (otherwise you'd have picked your second list with a Scout LT), AND your opponent gets first turn. That can happen, but it isn't all that likely.
    In most other games the 11th order will go a long way and is probably worth the risk.

    Also keep in mind that in LI there is quite an opportunity cost attached to bringing two plain line Kazaks, so the competition for Voronin really are the Scout LT or Tankhunter LT.
    The Tankhunter is only 4 points more, but the 1 SWC can really hurt some builds as you really want to bring some big guns to LI (Vet. Kazak AP HMG, Le Muet, Spetsnaz HMG,...).
    The Scout is definitely a cool option and the 8 points cost increase don't matter much in LI, but thats what your second list can be used for.

    Here is a list I could see working out quite well:

    [​IMG] Ariadna
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] COLONEL VORONIN Lieutenant Rifle / Assault Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] VETERAN KAZAK AP HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 47)
    [​IMG] VETERAN KAZAK (Forward Observer) AP Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
    [​IMG] ARMAND (Multispectral Visor L1) MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser / 2 Breaker Pistols, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (1.5 | 45)
    [​IMG] SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    [​IMG] UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] SCOUT (Forward Observer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    [​IMG] CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
    [​IMG] CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
    [​IMG] KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    With some good deployment you should also be able to keep Voronin relatively save so that aside from impersonators everyone should have a hard time getting to him. Best case you can create such a high opportunity cost to go for the kill that it just isn't worth it.
     
  15. Wulverdron

    Wulverdron Well-Known Member

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    Its just such a pity, because we all wanted to see Voronin return with a profile that was worth taking.

    While extremely cool and something that would make certain units interesting, the problem with this is how difficult terrain works currently- it would be strange that some units move faster in difficult terrain!

    I think you are raging against the void here. Everyone agrees that Voronin, as he currently exists, is pretty craptastic. We know that Line Kazaks are both cheaper and more durable (in number of bodies). If you are playing vanilla you can get orders even cheaper out of Volunteers. The only possible use case is limited insertion, and if you are playing LI as Ariadna you have bigger problems than an obvious Lt.

    Myself and a couple if other posters have tried to muse on anything that would change that.

    You can keep putting down other ideas if you wish, its just.. not constructive. Personally I'd love to have him be something other than a shelf ornament until (maybe) the release of Infinity N4.
     
  16. Kreslack

    Kreslack See you Space Cowboy...

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    Yeah it would be odd, but I can imagine that move option wouldn't be too common. Buuut... how often does difficult terrain ever even come up. In like 2 years I've maybe seen a bit of forest/jungle on a couple boards and a lot on only one. (Which I got a lot of pushback for setting up in the first place) Most people don't bother with difficult terrain, as most people's terrain tend to focus on urban streets or military outposts/bases. Forests/jungle crop up here and there, but I have practically never seen a board with mountain, desert, or even aquatic difficult terrain as minor Feature, yet alone major features. I do like that some units get to ignore it should it come up. But most of the time we all ignore it too.

    Major point being. A few units with a higher second move value, really wouldn't upset the game balance. And could even give those units a fun niche when it does come up.

    (Our group actually has Zero G come up the most for difficult terrain when we set up.)
     
  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Reminder - the terrain rules are as much a part of the game as the Hacking rules. The majority of tables should include at least some areas of movement or visibility terrain as some units/skills/equipment are priced based on terrain rules being used.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I guess that's true, but units like Umbra definitely aren't balanced with missions with terrain everywhere like Rescue in mind.
     
  19. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    I've played single combat group Ariadna plenty, there's nothing wrong with it. Just because I have a problem with Voronin's profile doesn't mean the whole faction is incapable of Limited Insertion.
     
  20. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Yes, and other skills like heavyweight are presumably costed based on the idea that gates will be used, but the main source of gates in ITS was removed...
    Even so, *any* terrain skill works in rescue, so single skills, which are cheaper, give the same benefit as multiterrain...
    Incapable, no, hampered greater than other factions, yes. Its a pain in the pipes, but so are viral weapons, MSV, Tags etc and we work around or through them just fine.