Have I got this right? If not, why not? 3 Man Fireteam bonus +1B: This bonus Burst consumes an extra use of Disposable per Attack declaration. Double Shot: This bonus Burst consumes an extra use of Disposable per Attack declaration. Weapon (+1 Burst): This bonus Burst does not consume an extra use of Disposable. (Long Ya, Ratnik) Enhanced Reaction supportware: This bonus Burst probably should consume an extra use of Disposable, but RAW at this time it does not. Ganging up in CC: The bonus Burst from allied troopers in CC probably should consume extra use(s) of Disposable, but RAW at this time it does not. (Applicable to CC Attack with D-Charges and Trench Hammers. Makes engineers with palbots and a few melee units much scarier.) Martial Arts Level 5: The bonus Burst from MA5 in CC probably ought to consume extra uses, although no unit can currently cause this situation anyway? Correct or no? For prior discussion, see this thread, but I wanted to try restarting with a cleaner statement: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/1b-disposable-weapons-and-unloading.38119/
So, is the supposed difference that Double Shot is "pull the trigger twice" and Disposable (2) is "two pulls of a trigger", while Weapon (+1B) is "much higher firerate per single trigger pull", but you still have 2 Disposable trigger pulls? I don't like the disparity between Fireteam +1B and Weapon (X) +1B.
I believe we can safely infer from the double shot and fireteam burst rule that in all these cases you expend an additional use of the weapon. It will boil down to RAW vs. RAI again, but the intention seems very clear.
I agree except for the case of weapons (not troop profiles, but weapons on a profile—see the Long Ya and Ratnik) with a native (+1 Burst) modifier. Basically, I think we should err on the side of the fewest "unwritten rules" and the fewest "erroneous rules" and this interpretation meets those criteria. Reasoning: The Long Ya and Ratnik each get two uses of a B2 Panzerfaust and B2 Flammenspeer (B1 in ARO), because: The simplest reading of (+1 Burst) in the troop's weapon listing changes the weapon's profile from B1 Disposable (2) to B2 Disposable (2). This requires the fewest additional inferences. Reading it otherwise implies that the weapon changes from B1 Disposable (2) to B2 Disposable (1), which is just an obligatory version of Double Shot. Neither troop has Weapon (+1 Burst, Disposable (1)), which would be an easy fix. Neither troop has (Double Shot) on the weapon, which would also be an easy fix. Infinity tracks Disposable weapon uses, not shots of ammunition. (This also means in ARO the weapons are B1 and consume a full use.) In N3, both troops had 2 Panzerfausts (or DEP? Long Ya wasn't out for long and I don't play Ariadna) and 2 Flammenspeer, so applied the double weapon rules. In the N4 update, they could have been given any one of several rules to limit them to 2 shots per weapon, the most obvious and simplest being Double Shot. That is not what the rules team decided to do. See above, and review the rules for Burst MODs, Disposable, and the situational rules in question below: Burst basic rules: No mention of Disposable. https://infinitythewiki.com/Combat_Module_Intro#Burst_.28B.29 Burst MODs: No mention of Disposable. https://infinitythewiki.com/Combat_Module_Intro#Modifiers_.28MOD.29 Disposable: https://infinitythewiki.com/Traits#Disposable Underlined phrases for emphasis mine. Note that there's no mention of Burst or Burst MODs. I hate to say this, but the whole question kind of hinges on whether that first "its use" means "the use of the weapon in an Attack" or "the use of a shot of Disposable." I find this annoying. Double Shot: https://infinitythewiki.com/Traits#Double_Shot Again, underlined emphasis is mine. Note the If-Then relationship: if you use Double Shot with a Disposable weapon, then you expend both uses. Note that neither the Long Ya nor the Ratnik have this. It exists on Chest Mines (BS Mode) and Mine Dispenser (see the weapons chart) and could easily have been added instead of the (+1 Burst) to the troop profiles, but was not. Fireteam Burst Bonus: https://infinitythewiki.com/Fireteam_Bonuses#Three_Member_Fireteam_Bonus "Emphasis mine III, the emphasizing." As with Double Shot, this involves an If-Then statement. Neither the Long Ya nor the Ratnik is using this bonus to gain additional Burst. Enhanced Reaction supportware: No mention of Disposable. https://infinitythewiki.com/Enhanced_Reaction. Only applies to the Long Ya AFAIK, and I suspect it's an oversight. They lack a native Repeater but can be parked within range of an allied Repeater or within ZoC of an EVO. Close Combat Burst bonus: No mention of Disposable. https://infinitythewiki.com/Close_Combat#CC_Attack_Modifiers_.28MOD.29. This really only applies to CC Attacks with D-Charges and Trench Hammers, and seems like an oversight that ought to be patched. Martial Arts L5: No mention of Disposable. https://infinitythewiki.com/Martial_Arts. Not currently applicable to the game since MA5 is pretty rare and doesn't seem to appear on any profile with access to D-Charges or a Trench Hammer.
tl;dr the only rules that say you consume more than 1 "use" of a Disposable weapon are "if you use this MOD, you consume an extra use of Disposable" clauses in the Double Shot and 3 man Fireteam rules. You tell me. Where in the rules does it say any other attack declaration with a Disposable weapon benefitting from a Burst bonus consumes extra Disposable uses? Why are we expected to infer something from two other rules that explicitly say "this bonus/MOD"? Especially in the two cases of models that in N3 did, in fact, have duplicate Disposable (2) weapons, so their update would logically make them B2 Disposable (2) weapons in N4? (edit) In-universe, we don't have artwork or a model for the Long Ya yet, but the Ratnik model has eight weapon tubes on its shoulders, so either it uses inefficient Disposable weapons that fire two warheads for just B1, or it's supposed to get B2 Disposable (2) for both types of Disposable it carries. I do think that the Enhanced Reaction rule ought to be patched to consume extra uses just like Double Shot and Fireteam Burst bonuses. I also think that Disposable weapons should be limited to B1 in CC, because frankly Gunnar or a Bearpode rolling up with buddies is just an appalling thought. RAW right now a Polaris team can move into CC and B2 CC24 Dam 18 DA you in the face. That's up to, what, six saves vs. Damage 18? And then do it again with another Order. Yikes.
You could never go by the sculpt. That's definitely the wrong approach (see disposable 3 Trenchhammers). This is RAW correct, which is pretty shitty as far as clear cut rules go, but nontheless exactly what the rules say. Especially the free D-Charges in CC from Gangup are quire jarring/exploitable on the table. I kind of like the +1 Burst in the weapon Profile replicating the old twin weapons, then again not a fan this only works in Active. N4 should have had a way to overwrite the default ammunition count and should have cleaned up the wording to make each point of Burst used consume one charge. This came up pretty much of day 1 of N4. But alas it wasn't cleaned up and we're stuck with this abomination of possible interactions. BTW @wes-o-matic MA5 comes up in missions where non Specialists could pull disposable CC Weapons/D-Charges from Panoplies.
Generally, but in N3 the Ratnik did actually comply with the sculpt for these weapons, which seems pertinent when discussing whether or not the update to N4 nerfed the profile. F*ck. Well, at least the ITS 12 Panoplies don't issue D-Charges. That may be a problem for the future/houserules.
Trenchhammers are not disposable because you lose the hammer. They have literal rocket engines / shaped explosive charges on their backs, so there's fuel / ammo for 3 blast accelerated strikes with a Trenchhammer before it becomes an unwieldy lump of metal and is discarded, I guess? Not "realism", but, well, how it seems to work.
I'm referring to the Trenchhammer head having 2x2 = 4 visual "charges" Or the Aquila having a Burst 0 Panzerfaust that can't be reloaded Or the Uhlan gaining a rate of fire upgrade in N4 without a model update on his Feuerbach. Point is the sculpt doesn't matter, way too many exceptions. This is the rules section, not the "my HRMC has 7 barrels so it needs to be B7" section.
Just singling this one specifically out to remind you of the reactive turn when the burst MOD wouldn't work. Reactive is when I most often use a Long Ya's noobtoobs
For the time being I'm going to stick with the intuitive interpretation and assume that any disposable weapon firing B2 consumes 2 uses, regardless of which rule gave it the second die.
Yes, which is informative as to the intent of the designers. Assuming that using (+1 Burst) consumes an extra Disposable use, if you use one shot at B1 in ARO, do you still get the benefit of (+1 Burst) in the active turn now that you’re down to Disposable (1)? If not, what rule says how to play it? My whole point is that it’s far simpler if the weapon is B2 in active and B1 in ARO like every non-Disposable weapon with those Burst values, and an attack consumes one use of Disposable regardless of whether active or ARO like any other Disposable weapon outside a link or Double Shot.
I agree with you on what the rules seem to say, even though I expect a different answer when IJW gets the confirmation he was looking for, I'm just reminding you that setting Disposable to 1 has other consequences ;) But for argument's sake, they might want to make a weapon that shoots similar to an older missile/rocket artillery (one battery at a time), and it would be a very interesting design, I think.
Are you serious? Do you know WHY there is no mention of Burst or Burst MODs there? Maybe because not all of the Disposable items are BS Weapons? And given that ALL weapons with Disposable are Burst 1 or Deployable, the term USE have to refer to both. Double Shot is dedicated to weapons with the Disposable trait to make them unleash both shots in a single volley, so is pretty obvious there is a note about it there. Seriously. How in the world are you justifying that a B2 shot just use up a single ammo? It is hilarious!
If all Disposable weapons should behave the same way, then the Disposable rule should say so. I do not understand why this is such a controversial statement. Seriously. Add the following and consider the difference: "If a Disposable weapon is affected by any MOD that grants additional Burst while performing a BS Attack, the weapon will consume additional uses. One use is consumed per point of additional Burst. If a MOD would result in a Burst value that exceeds the current number of remaining uses, that MOD may not be applied to the attack." There, fixed it. Now, if the weapon IS a BS Weapon and gets a Burst MOD, then it will use one "shot" per point of Burst and we know what to do if the Burst MOD would result in using shots that aren't there. And if the weapon IS NOT a BS Weapon, it won't come up. The rule is agnostic to the source of Burst MODs, and mirrors Double Shot but is more obligatory so Double Shot can stick around without being redundant. It's RAW right now. I would prefer that it get a FAQ or something, especially the implications for CC gang-up MODs. But RAW the only Burst MODs that use extra Disposable shots are the FT and Double Shot ones. I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it's what's in the actual text of the rules. I didn't write the damn things. You can houserule it however you want and I'll be happy to abide by that if we ever play a game, but RAW this is what the book says. A Panzerfaust shoots twice. I have two Panzerfausts. That's four shots. I link them to a single trigger in a coaxial mount, so one pull of the trigger will fire both Panzerfausts simultaneously. I pull the trigger once. How many shots do I have left? (In ARO, the shot is poorly aimed and one shell is almost guaranteed to miss, unless I crit and then I guess it means both hit?)
Seems like it. Infinity rules are convoluted and full of these things. You cannot take all of them at face value and large part of the game is actually figuring out with your opponent how to treat certain situations, sometimes inferring the intent of the designer or determining what makes more "sense" in any given context. Maybe I'm missing something here but why does a panzerfaust shoot twice? It's a B1 weapon. [+1B] basically translates into two launch tubes or a rapid fire mechanism in my mind.
