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Biked being hard to hit

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by wuji, Nov 11, 2021.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    No
     
  2. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I give up. There is just no talking to you, jesus. I literally teach five year olds for a living and they are more mature than this shit.
     
  3. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    You clearly did not see that I stated above in this thread that I'm trying to push things in a better direction than the past. You're just trying to start problems here. Everytime you or anyone else does, you're gonna get reported.
     
  4. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Dude, I'm not convinced you've ever even played a game of Infinity.
     
  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The mimetism on bikes isn't representing them being camouflaged like some other troopers, it's used here to represent how they're hard to hit. Adding another layer to that would be redundant. It was also added as a blanket change to all motorcycle with ITS13, and if we look at the precedents for ITS changes (TAG, MI, Drop Troop) those are usually changes that are there to be tested and stick around in the future.

    I think the current changes to bike (mimetism, option for cover) is good enough to make bikes a serious consideration in list building now.

    Stacking a new conditional source of modifiers to accomplish something that mimetism already does seems to be a bit convoluted in my opinion. Perhaps a Dodge bonus would be more appropriate to represent bikes going fast to avoid attacks (their dodge already get bonus speed to show that).

    The proposed change basically just makes bike have a better version of mim-6 during the active turn. If you look at the new bounty hunter, getting a mim-6 equivalent trooper (that can now get cover) with a redfury for 15 points (or free in some missions) would probably be a little bit too strong imo.
     
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  6. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    If you were right, then MSV wouldnt be able to counter it... Alternatively you could give bikes Immunity: MSV to represent the argument you're trying to make. This is literally the first sentence of mimetism: "This Special Skill represents the soldier's ability to conceal their position and move stealthily, making them difficult to target in combat.". The stealthiest faction in the game with leads of bikes doesnt even have stealth on their bikes and this is written directly into mimetism.


    QUOTE="Diphoration, post: 421224, member: 4419"]
    I think the current changes to bike (mimetism, option for cover) is good enough to make bikes a serious consideration in list building now.[/QUOTE] again, MSV and mimetism is an over reliance in this game and your argument does not make sense with the confines of the game. Mimetism is purely an optical effect just like smoke, which is why MSV sees through both. Please dont make these kinds of arguments, it informs that your opposition to my suggestion is not based in good faith or reason within the game.


    QUOTE="Diphoration, post: 421224, member: 4419"]
    Stacking a new conditional source of modifiers to accomplish something that mimetism already does seems to be a bit convoluted in my opinion. Perhaps a Dodge bonus would be more appropriate to represent bikes going fast to avoid attacks (their dodge already get bonus speed to show that).[/QUOTE] Dodge is performed exactly the same way for everything in the game. Which is not represented by speed but agility/dexterity. Speed is a passive attribute, of which something is bot consciously trying to perform. In fact, when anything or anyone is trying to dodge, its distance is decreased. Two different functions. I'll agree bikes or at least some bikes, that are clearly not warband should be able to take cover.


    QUOTE="Diphoration, post: 421224, member: 4419"]
    The proposed change basically just makes bike have a better version of mim-6 during the active turn. If you look at the new bounty hunter, getting a mim-6 equivalent trooper (that can now get cover) with a redfury for 15 points (or free in some missions) would probably be a little bit too strong imo.[/QUOTE]
    If a unit already has mimetism or is intended to have mimetism of any level that's character design. But bikes themselves across the board is a different concept. I mean, no one is arguing against Penny. An active turn mod does not break this game if CB is already trying to give bikes as a whole mimetism in both the active turn and the reactive turn and cover to compensate for their inability to go prone while being a big base and being relatively fragile aside from the Montessa.

    Moreover, just months ago, people were all agreeing CB was over reliant on mimetism. You know what that makes everyone's arguments here look like, they look biased based purely on the person saying them. Others tried to say that I'm trying to introduce a new rule when it's clearly not, it's literally only expanding on what CB has already done with their new system.

    I have to ask, now that you have been reminded of the function of MSV and mimetism, and the previous agreement by the community about CB over relying on mimetism, are you going to let it go? Because if you dont then I have to report you for purposefully trying to gang up on me along with everyone else with invalid arguments because your personal bias. If you dont like my ideas, you can say that, and then you can leave but if you're gonna lie about the rules definitions, then please leave. I'm done with arguing with people who make arguments like this. You and everyone else who gives false arguments will be reported. The more you all do it, the more the truth will be seen that all that you all have been doing is harassment. And if you dont stop then that means @psychoticstorm isnt doing his job, which will prove his bias and then I'll go strait to CB with all of this. I'm done with you all.
     
    #26 wuji, Nov 14, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
  7. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I hate quoting lore stuff because I particularly don't care about it, but here is the blurb from the new ITS 13 "Moreover, all of them are equipped with vibratory pulse emitters which, added to the high speed of these vehicles, blow the snow and frost in their path up into the air, making it difficult to aim at them." So, it's a mixture of them going zoom zoom which makes it hard to see them because of the snow. I understood from previous bikes having mimetism that it was because they go fast because the Aragoto surely doesn't like like it has any sort of camouflage.

    A lot of profiles in the game have bonus movement to Dodge when they are also fast troopers, it is rolled the same way, but it is often used to reinforce the idea that a trooper is fast. It wouldn't be out of place to tie that to the bike's narrative.

    I personally don't take MSV troopers (outside of the Greif operator) because I think they're mostly pretty poor (at least the ones I have access to in Tohaa, CA, Sha, HB), the equipment tend to go on overly bloated troopers for the most part. I don't see the issue in making them be a counter to something that is pretty widespread.

    From a game balance perspective, I don't really see the need to start adding more uncounterable mods. And these uncounterable mods are honestly creeping and I can see them becoming an issue, especially how a lot of them do not care about FtF anymore. I was just discussing yesterady how the new interactions with surprise attack not requiring FtF is looking a bit too strong now.

    Because Penny is trash and overpriced. The Motorized bounter hunter is a better trooper and if it had a -6 vis mod guaranteed as well as being able to claim cover in its active turn, you can be sure people would start complaining about its powerlevel.
     
  8. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I get what you are saying here. There are a lot of shit profiles whose thing is MSV. I think those profiles are pretty poor and that design philosophy is really poor. But the Gao Rael is a superb unit, I'm amazed you chuck that in the same basket as the rest. Yeah its only good because links and pokebullshit, but regardless its always the first model I add into any Tohaa force I make.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How do they steer if they're pushing snow and ice in front of themselves?
     
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  10. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The Gao-Rael competes with the Sukeul ML, which I think is a lot stronger personally. So while it isn't bad like most of the other MSV troopers, it just doesn't carve its in my lists because of the competition.

    The Gao-Rael has really mediocre weapons and doesn't impose vis mods. I think mimetism on the Sukeul is better than MSV on the Gao-Rael (because good MSV troopers are rare like I said before) and template + EXP or AP + EXP is so much more threatening than shock. Also the Sukeul has +1 BS which is relevant regardless of the opposing equipment and further shortens the gap with the MSV.

    And as an opportunity cost thing, the Sukeul is much more likely to move up the board and shoot things up with the shotgun imo (though that doesn't come up super often, I've had it matter a couple time). But this doesn't weigh in much in my analysis.
     
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Discussion should remain on topic, if there are issues with other forum members the report button and ignore are options forum members should utilize.

    I would also advise against meaninglessly protracting a thread, I am not pleased by the behavior some posters have shown.
     
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  12. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    That's my point, CB came up with a story to give all the bikes a visual (mimetic) effect that is countered by MSV. CB is trying to make it where every style and every troop has its day, good on em, that shows a desire to continue to make a better game. But it doesnt stack with mimetism that's already paid for. Well, that's not good either. When you say you "understood", that implies you read somewhere that implied their mimetism was due to going fast. But there is nowhere in the game that's close to that. Ifny look u assume that, then that would be a more accurate way of saying it, if that was the truth. But by your logic the Montesa should not have mimetism cause it's only 8-4 like the Ariadnan bikes, the Kum should have mimetism because they are 8-6 and either Penny's mimetism shouldnbe reduced to -3 or her speed be I'll increased to 8-8 to match her mimetism -6. I'm suggesting these are the proportionate changes since you specifically referenced Aragoto which makes it easier to use that as the standard I stead of changing that one as well. My point is, the logic doesnt hold up, including Penny having mimetism -6 because she comes from the sectorial known for its ODD. I'm certain you've been playing long enough to know that. But lastly, whatever the models are sculpted with does not equate to what they have. Thats been long established, 5+ years,
    with Morats not having consistent Armor or CC despite every units wielding very large (now)CCWs.

    the Dodge movement being longer is not based on MOV speed. The myrmidons alone have Dodge +2" almost uniformly while most have a MOV of 4-4 but the irony here is, Penny while on a bike that has a MOV 8-6 Mounted and 4-4 Dismounted, has a Dodge +2" for both. So the argument for Dodge distance being related to speed goes away now too.

    Personal preference is about as subjective as you can get. Some players may agree, sure, and that's fine, but if enough players like the MSV smoke tactic or the simple ability to de y their opponent an advantage, then it's absolutely fair to say that this isnt an argument at all.

    uncounterable mods? The only thing that comes to mind is the +1 burst on DTWs. While it's more deadly in the active, it was always a non ftf roll. What other mods to non ftf rolls are you referring to?



    This too is subjective, while a mono CCW does low damage, shes a mim -6 platform with a combi rifle, that's enough for light targets and uncounterable -6 in CC with a mono blade for harder targets and that means she also performs better against the increasingly prevalent NBW. Its seems more likely that she has a role to play.
     
  13. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that Mimetism on bikes comes from speed, as there are bikers (Kum Riders, Maverick) that don't have Mimetism and move as fast the rest. Mimetic bikes are also associated with higer tech factions, so I'd say it represents active camouflage.

    Anyway, ruleswise it was historically (I mean, regarding the game development and evolution through the years) just a way to balance the fact that they usually didn't get cover, and this made the bikes slightly more difficult to hit than regular troopers but very fragile because they didn't have cover and also had usually little armour. This fragility and speed also encouraged to use them as fast Active Turn attackers.

    Current ITS rules means that they are looking to expand the options for bikers, as now you can choose how to use them.
     
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  14. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    And you've shown here a really good example of why in a simplified skill system (N4 over N3) a single skill can represent multiple things in the narrative of the game.

    The Aragoto gets Dodge bonus because it's a speedy motorcycle.
    The Myrmydon gets a Dodge bonus because it's strong and high phys.

    Similarly, Mimetism is used for the Aragoto because it's agile, and on an Ariadna Scout because it's camouflaged.

    There are times where the lore description of the skill bleed a bit and where the suspension of disbelief from MSV is a bit altered (it "tracks" the bike trooper even if the description is "This piece of Equipment was designed to combat the effects of different military concealment and camouflage technologies."

    But that's a game design decision over a lore decision to keep things simple.

    I don't think adding a modifiers that excusively affects BS Attack (Move BS-3) with particular conditions, when one already exists (Mimetism -3) is a good direction. As you add more things similar to those, the rule system would get very convoluted imo.

    Using mimetism to represent this has the only downside of making MSV slightly better, and I honestly thing that's a good thing because of how poor most MSV troopers are.
     
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  15. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I'm done man, I had to report you, you're making stuff up. I cannot and will not argue or discuss argumentative tactics like this with anyone anymore. It's either coming from a place of ignorance or its Ego driven. As I've said to @psychoticstorm, this is not good. I dont assume to know which is the reason for you and many others to behave this way, but I'm finally able to draw attention to this kind of behavior about many discussions. When people are saying things that either arent facts, or trying to say their is some sort of implication and in this case the existence of MSV being a hard counter completely blows what you're saying out of the water, then there's no more discussion. I've faced this so many times with so many of you. It's not anyone's job to respect anyone else's Ego or feelings because they dont like an idea, or the person saying the idea or if their ignorant of facts concerning the idea. It's no ones responsibility to be nice about disagreement, its everyone's responsibility to be Good about disagreement.

    This is the last I will say on it. Because it is wrong, it is bad of @psychoticstorm to shutdown threads because people come to a head. He should only be on top of people about whether or not they are respectful. And do not think for one second that when someone points out all the possibilities as to why the opposing party is wrong is disrespectful. It in no way assume which is the true motive or reason for someone saying something but it is meant to be illuminating to all who read it including the opposing party who may not even be aware that they are ignorant of some fact which in itself is not a bad thing, but more often than not a person's Ego cannot stand the feeling of being ignorant of something but more so the feeling of being wrong, which erroneously translates to being less than. Since Friday Psychoticstorm said he will be more stern and I intend to see that through because these forum need to improve not toward being nice to peoples Egos but toward people being Good, and that means honesty, especially with ourselves. I have seen incredibly poor arguments about this bike issue and the expanded use of CBs new system. I hope to God Psychoticstorm and other mods, CB staff and really every one here see this and figure things out. And full disclosure, no I did not want to type this much about all this but it seems just way too evident that there is not gonna be an improvement without it and I'm just too fed up with all the fakeness, it's common decency and respect for not only other people but the game and its makers not to make up lies or use your own completely uninformed feelings as reasoning for an argument and expect people to just lay down what theyve thought about hard on and gave the respect no to lie to you or make erroneous statements that they arent fully prepared to retract/apologize for should they ignorantly say something false. @psychoticstorm , make your statement but if you if shutdown this or any other thread instead of promoting Good behavior the way you're supposed to, you already know my move.
     
  16. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Oh, I saw.
    I simply don't believe you.
    As for trying to start problems, I'm quoting your posts.
    There already is a problem, it's your own words.
    So, report away.
     
  17. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    What exacty is happening here?

    Report me for what? Giving you my opinion in an opinion thread about a new rule?

    I have been extremely polite in all of my replies in every thread I ever posted in.

    Are you going to report anyone that disagrees with parts of anything in any posts? I even gave explanations on every arguments I have on how I think the changes would be a good or (in this case) a bad changes.
     
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  18. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Shhhh. Verisimilitude doesn't live here anymore.
     
  19. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    They must have something to counter the blindness. Maybe a radar of sorts similar to what bats use?
     
  20. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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