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Best faction/sectorial for ORCS?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Rikolae, May 4, 2019.

  1. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I imagine he just means that their kit and gear is adapted to the environment.

    There are a couple examples of CB attaching MSV1 to troops that specialize in mountain operations. Climbing Plus is another good option.

    ORCs getting the same treatment that Janissaries received in Ramah would be the dream.
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    A Sval equivalent would obviously not run around with ARM0, that's just not practical for their local fauna. Arm 0, Mines, Spitfires, Sapper and Sensor are all Acon things that make them different and unique compared to Fusiliers.
    Varuna Orcs are uninspired next to that with just a terrain Skill and Stealth slapped on them without being different in any meaningful way aside from their potential link buddies.

    I'd like to see Varuna Fusiliers differ as much from basic Fusiliers as Regulars do, although in an entirely different direction than close range guerilla jungle fighters.
    Generally speaking they would be nice testing grounds for stuff like a MSV1 Marksman Rifle, Linetrooper Haris or even a Veteran option.
    Would be great if Sval finds a neat way around the usual "slap a better trooper into a dirt cheap LI Link and call it a day" formula.
    It gets the job done but feels hamfisted and ends up hiding all those skeleton Profiles you never take in plain sight. Circumventing the need to create a whole balanced Faction, in favour of a few good options to make you forget about those 10 Orc Profiles hardly anyone ever puts on a table, works from a min max point of view.
    But while I'm quite happy with Varuna's powerlevel, a lot of the Faction feels like a wasted opportunity and that has been the common denominator for Sectorial releases even if they turned out very playable.
     
    #62 Teslarod, May 21, 2019
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  3. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    I would be interested to see how they make sval feel different enough compared to our other sectorials – Nisse MSR in a Fusi link feels a lot like Kamau MSR in a fusilier link, regardless of what flavor the fusis are packing.
     
  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    @Teslarod
    Agreed. I'm obviously happy with the power level of Kamau + Fusiliers, but I personally would have been equally happy with Kamau SMG or BSG filler profiles and no mixed links for Kamau. Obviously Kamau + cheap line troops is immensely powerful, but having a 17-18 point Kamau SMG be filler for the dreaded Kamau MSV2 would have been an interesting design constraint. It also could have let Varuna break free in other areas too... Perhaps enough of a handicap to justify giving something special to VIRD ORCs. Mimetism? Perhaps too overused, but very powerful. Limited Camouflage? A direct template weapon?

    I agree that Svalarheima is a chance to ask those questions. Imagine a Core link that has 5 of the same unit... And still feels powerful and competitive.
     
  5. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    No, I just say this for internet attention :face_with_rolling_eyes:
    Of course I'm serious. I think I have played ORCs enough now to know that they aren't a shitty troop. Do they look boring? Yes, of course because they don't have shiny skills and special weapons but only good all around stats (except from WIP) and basic weapons for HIs of the Hyperpower. When you field an ORC, the only troopers your opponent will have to be able to face him when he is in active are the best troopers of his faction or a full core FT. This is just one guy costing 40-44pts with comfortable AVA and not consuming those of our top notch units. You might not be impressed but to me, this means a lot. This means that I don't have to risk my best trooper to do all the heavy shooting work, provided I just avoid the big guy(s) who are limited in number or gathered in the same area, and be free to keep my best shooter for more needed time. It also means that if I have lost my best trooper (SG for example), this guy will have hard time against just a handful amount of ennemy troopers when shooting at them. And this also means that this guy can be used as bait or counterdeployment.

    "Boring and Reliable"
    While a lot place the accent on Boring, I place mine on Reliable. ORCs really have my trust, they rarely failed me.
    While I'm not against fancy skills specific for each sectorial, I'm not asking them neither. Multiterrain is useful for Campaign and special scenarios, tables and against Dazers and having stealth on VORCs set them apart from any other standard HIs already. Any kind of little piece of equipment like X-Visor or Minesweeper could be changing the unit from his previous behaviour while not making it overcosting.
     
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  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Damn attention "seekers" ;P

    In which part of "reliable" are ORCs ? They exemplify all drawbacks of HI (being expensive, hacking vulnerable, "state" vulnerable, high overcosted PH without additional use) while providing "little" (in meta-faction) in terms of power. Like most (like 90%) of other HI are usually better sell even if they are BS13.
     
  7. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    2 Wounds, ARM 4 (or more), BS14 (or more), access to HMG, no Frenzy.
    There are only two other PanO HI that share all those characteristics: Aquilla Guard and Swiss Guard. Each about 20pts more for the HMG.
    And besides them the only other HI with an HMG is Hospitaller, who has Frenzy.
     
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  8. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Except CC and WIP, all stats in ORCs are reliable (even if BTS3 is a bit low too). Their good PH means they can dogde pretty well mines and even against surprise shot. Yes, they have all the drawback of true basic HIs but also the good sides : Shock Immunity, not getting straigth killed by one DA, Viral and T2 ammo hit, good armor while still moving at 4-4, able to score some classified, surviving to some scenario endings etc.
    What I want from an HI is a straight improved soldier compared to my MI and LI. It is not a surprise to see Haqq players field so few HIs, they don't bring that much compared to their LI except ARM and W. On the opposite, an ORC has strictly better stats, meaning that he will strictly be a better fighter than them. And since they have no skill, this means you're not paying for something that can happen to be useless or worse. You know exactly what you're paying for and there is no way your opponent can negate it.
    You find them expensive, I find them ok in their price but this might come from what we're looking at and what we're asking from them (you can't play withouth 15 or more orders, I tend to play at 10). You put Swiss Guard on an altar of efficiency but you pay the price of an ORC HMG and a half for this lone trooper while an ORC HMG alone will be enough against 80% of your opponent's list. And this is even more relevant in your spamming meta in Eastern Europe. With those 22 extra points, you could take a Kamau FO, two fusiliers or an Akal for example. The 20% remaining units your ORC isn't able to kill may be eliminated by an other trooper or just ignored. So, why spend those 68 points in one guy who might be able to kill two guys your ORC wouldn't while strictly overkilling the other 80%? Plus, since this ORC HMG is enough in most of the case, he frees you the Swiss Guard slot for AHD or ML SG who can really do a work an ORC can't. That's what I see when I see ORCs in Vanilla for example. To me, the only trooper who really could step on the ORC's feet in Vanilla is the Aquila (in no way I would take a Hospitaller HMG in Vanilla) but even then, the Aquila HMG can't be the Lt and you may need the Aquila to be the FTO.

    In sectorials, it is another question. In Varuna, you don't have alternative HI for the same role so the question is more "HI or not?" than anything else. For SAA, I've played them a bit and they make a good option to open a second front on the table when your Tik can't move for reasons. In NCA, you can play them along one or two Guards or go horde and spam Hexas and Fusiliers while letting them take the BF in order to clean the midfield.
    Really, ORCs do a lot of things and this debate reminds me an old one we had on the old forum about our TAGs. Everyone was praising Jotum, Cutter, Tik and Dragao while judging the Squalo was so boring that considering him was a mistake. Maybe it is because I'm not very present here but I hear more about Squalo those days than about the other MBTs (except Cutter maybe).
     
    #68 Ayadan, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I think the ORC's in a healthy place. In Varuna, as mentioned, it's really the only choice. The Varuna Division rules give it more appeal.

    It's in a very good place in Acon. 4-4, BS14 is a good alternative compared to Bagh Mari 4-2, BS12. Acon Regulars are very good in the midfield, so they pair better with an ORC than a Fusilier does. ORC HMG, Acon Regular Sensor + Minelayer is a good pairing for attacking a lane, delivering a Specialist to an objective, clearing out enemy units, and then locking the lane down with mines. That's very strong, and the ORC provides more durability and speed than a Bagh Mari does. The ORC makes a good Datatracker there too.
     
  10. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    ORCs are good because of relatively. In Varuna it's what you have so you have to deal with it. SAA theyre amazing just because they can link with Regulars, offering a fast, heavy hitting tank to escort the rest of the link team.

    I really can't imagine taking one if Vanilla and in NCA they have so much competition its tough to take one there as well. If they got the link flexibility like in other sectorials then there is a discussion to be had.
     
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  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    ORCs + CSUs in NCA would definitely be a conversation.
     
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  12. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    In Vanilla, it's rather easy. The AVA of every other HI is so tight that you don't have any other choice if you want to take the others for what makes them really unique: Hospitaller will be Doctor, Swiss with ML or AHD. Again, the only troop you could want to take instead of an ORC is the Aquila but maybe you'll find that it's better to use those 18 extra points with others to pick a Nisse HMG instead in order to have 2 good HMG instead of 1 extremely good. And the BSG option is fairly affordable if you want a non impetuous HI for close range (even if FK is a good contender for this role).
    Remember too that there are other tier games than mid-tier even if not so commonly played and escalation leagues too. For those, ORCs can be troops you begin to consider if you can't afford more or if you already have taken you best choices but want more beefy troopers or linkable ones.
     
  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Yeah, something like this?

    ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44)
    FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
    CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    CSU (Specialist Operative) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)

    3 SWC | 97 Points

    That'd be pretty damn hard to pass up.
     
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  14. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Exactly! Nice configuration. Specialist, HMG, rifle, shotgun, breaker, direct template, LGL, hacking support that comes along for the ride... Really nice team. Especially to close a game out, sweeping in Turn 3.
     
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  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Gonna have to disagree with pretty much everything @Ayadan brings up.
    Especially if you're bringing an LI list at 300.
    No matter if you go 10 Orders or 20 you never want a nasic Orcs to be the pinnacle of Firepower for your list. You'll either want him with Core Bonus or something else that does it better.
    What's the point of spending Orders on a single Orc HMG in Vanilla with 10 Orders when you could bring a Core Linked one with 16+ in Acon and Varuna?
    Orcs are not good for their points, they're average at best.
    They pale in comparison to a Spetznaz, KB or Swiss relative to their points.
    On the other hand an Orc in a LI Link granting you access to a core linked HI HMG, 5 Orders and a bunch of utility for 90 something points is very very good.
    Honorable mention to the Orc Feuerbach here for a scary hybrid ARO/Active piece, but that's it. The extent of circumstances where an Orc is a sound choice instead of a meh one is pretty narrow.
    Taking a HMG/Feuerbach enables you to take a second Orc, probably a BSG or Patsy, if you have a good mission based reason for it. But the second one already hits diminishing retruns depending on which Sectorial you are in. A Bagh/Kamau might be a better addition to put the remaining points into Nagas/ZCs etc.
    In Vanilla you might as well go for a Tik or Swiss HMG over two Orcs.

    One Orc with a SWC gun is pretty good in Acon and Varuna, no doubt.
    Any more and you get hit by the inevitable problem that they are just a bunch of expensive stats in a game inhabited by Frenzy HI and Spetznaz HMGs. A game where a Cutter has the same 10 Orders in his group as the Fusilier providing them.
     
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  17. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, I think it is more a matter of what you take with your ORCs in order to have the upper hand. In a LI vanilla list, of course the ORC as your primary attack piece is a bad idea, except if you're 100% sure to face only lists focusing on 16+ orders. But if you really want to play more than one group, I think that an ORC HMG is enough when you can play along Bulleteers, Nisse, Kamaus, ZC and other good troops like these. As the ORC is often discarded, he will be low in threatening level but instead of two or three threats, your opponent will have to play against four or five middle threatening units all across the table and his FT will not be able to manage all of them alone.
    Here is the kind of list you should have in mind. Not saying it is the best of its kind, I'm really not used to make two orders lists but I think you'll get the idea.

    PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    ORC Lieutenant HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44)
    NISSE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 23)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    ZULU-COBRA (X Visor) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    BOLT (Chain of Command) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    6 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  18. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Yeah, Vanilla PanO went and got good.

    But more importantly, it went and got interesting.
     
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  19. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Of course. But I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about present and in this present, while it could appears that ORCs are in the worst place they could have, they are in fact in a better one. I'm not talking just in order to create a debate, I'm talking about them because I have tested them through a lot of games in every sectorial we had them in before Varuna and have tested them again in their reshaped old sectorials. And while they were good but a bit frustrating sometimes (because of the old way to make FT), they are now just excellent.
    They aren't shiny and thanks to this, they don't pop up in my opponents mind as a main threat at all if they aren't in core. But because I play them in lists that give them the possibility to shine unexpectedly, they are, in fact, the ones who seal most of my victories with them.
    And I don't think that I'm a super player. I think you could in fact make more than me with them, provided you take the time to find out how you can make them work.
     
  20. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I think that's a good post by @Ayadan . The point about opponents underestimating ORCs is particularly accurate.

    I notice it too. I've been running a solo VIRD division ORC quite a bit. And when I say solo, I mean he doesn't join a link the entire game.

    When you have a brutal set of AROs (Jammer, Kamau MSV2, Helots) that the opponent is trying to avoid, it's pretty easy to just run a 4-4 HMG around and do some damage. The second Wound, ARM4, etc. makes him more self-sufficient than a1-Wound HMG, but he doesn't draw the same attention as a TAG, Swiss Guard, link of Knights, etc.