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Best faction/sectorial for ORCS?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Rikolae, May 4, 2019.

  1. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I've been favoring the ORC HMG over the Fuerbach lately. I thought I'd be strongly drawn to the Fuerbach, but that guy really needs his 5-man link bonuses in order to make his presence known. I find that this tethers the Fuerbach to the Core link, which can be very limiting.

    The HMG is obviously quite good both linked and unlinked, and can still use Suppressive Fire for decent personal protection also. When I'm using an ORC in VIRD, I probably need him Datatracking, Xenotech escorting, or doing some other task that probably means walking out of the DZ, away from where the Core link wants to hide. So the HMG has become much more appealing as a result.

    This primarily applies to VIRD and Acon, of course.
     
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  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    It's interesting, the more I explore Acon the more I feel like the ORC is stronger as part of the Fireteam there and yet has more competition for Solo work.
     
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  3. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I think you're right.

    The Acon ORC is much better suited to being in a link, I think. Regulars are really well suited for supporting it, Regulars are great in the midfield, and there's no wildcard/second ORC required either like there is in VIRD. I've run an ORC HMG, Regular Sensor+Minelayer and Regular Paramedic around the table laying waste with 4-4 MOV and supreme tactical flexibility. That isn't something the VIRD ORC can do... Fusiliers don't fully support it, so it is far more reliant on Snake Eaters, both to form the link and clear a path.

    So the Acon ORC can do well solo, but there's not much reason it has to be solo. The VIRD ORC is much more likely to be solo, and is happy that way, since it brings stealth, movement skills, etc to help it be more self sufficient.
     
  4. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I wouldn't even say it's the Varuna Div ORCs bonuses that make it better at soloing than in Acon.

    I'd suspect it's more so a case of competition:
    The VIRD ORC is effectively the only HI unit VIRD has ( Patsy included, since she's technically an ORC too. ). So a solo ORC Hacker/HMG/BSG makes more sense here, due to lack of direct competition for 2W solos.
    Whilst Acon has stuff like the Montesa and, more notably, the Guarda when it comes to solo HI pieces, so I'd suspect they both overshadow the ORC most of the time for the purpose of an HI specialist or dude with a large gun.

    But that's just my take.
     
  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    @Maksimas

    Yeah, we agree about ORCs not having much competition in VIRD.

    I have been thinking about the Montessa in VIRD, though that's really a different topic.
     
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  6. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Oh wait I just remembered those exist in VIRD too.

    NCA Montessas when then?
     
    #26 Maksimas, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  7. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting that, despite being a "boring" and somewhat overpriced troop, ORC seems to get much more love than Brigada or Janissaries currently, despite being "worse" than them on paper.
     
  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I really cannot remember hearing them been overpriced, boring? from their first introduction, overpriced? I struggle to remember.
     
  9. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    ORC on average pay between 1 and 4 pts more than similar units from other factions while bringing less to the table, hence "overpriced".
    A Brigada MR gets -1 BS, +1 WIP, Courage and Light Ft all for 1 point less than ORC MR.
     
  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It is that +1BS... PanO pays for it.
     
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  11. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    And despite people arguing that lower BS with Mimetism is effectively better, that +1BS is worth it most of the time. I like where ORCs are now, actually. They could use a secondary weapon, like Nanopulser, but oh well, that's the (old) PanO way.

    I haven't played my Acon for some time now, but I'm tempted to roll out ORC Haris, with another running point in Regular Core. They have AVA for it.
     
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  12. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I think it might be because, compared to Brigadas, Shang Ji, Suryats and Janissaries, ORCs mesh into their respective factions a LOT better than those other four do.
     
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  13. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Just to remember, BS14 is the BS of every non-PanO basic LI core FT for the other factions. Paying 44 pts in just one guy to bring just the firepower of a FT core for other factions is something to consider. Yes, less orders too but an ORC is really harder to kill than an Alguacile. A Core FT in Varuna will obviously attire attention, ZC and Helots too. A lone ORC HMG will be able to put his weight were your opponent can't take it because he is shooting that good. BS13 + Mimetism isnt that worth when your target prefers laying a Mine, tossing smoke or has a MSV. There are a lot of case where non PanO players don't care if you're using ODD or TO since they won't shoot at you. So BS14 has its own value, don't forget it.
    MB' problem is that Intruders and Tsyklon cost already merely the same price. Nomad players rarely think they can have some use of MB while they are playing already an Intruder and a KB HMG. The KB HMG profile is the real problem, I think, as it overshadows too much things on its own while being the less Nomad-feeling profile of all.
     
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  14. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I struggle to link ORCs in Vird. Taking that extra ORC or Kamau just to cheerlead in a Fusil team never feels worth it to me. I used to take a solo Feuerbach a lot when the sectorial first came out for Xeno-babysitting and data-tracker purposes. These days I'm much more into taking the Zulu spitfire or Crocman MSR as solo pieces, with Datatracker and Xenotech shifting over to the link team or doctor.

    I don't think ORCs are overcosted or bad for that matter – in VIRD, they're just highly mission dependent, sometimes you need a 2W model, sometimes you don't. I often find that negative mods coupled with deployment skills usually get the job done better.
     
  15. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    A good point.

    I suppose my response is:
    Why would Corregidor buy a Brigada, when they can smoke/Eclipse the objective? Why pay for a BS13 HI HMG when you can get a BS13, MSV2, Camo, Smoke-shooting Medium Infantry HMG?

    I've seen Corregidor folks use Brigada, so I don't think they're universally bad. But the role of beatstick HI isn't needed as much in Nomads or Haqq, which are both renowned for their range of options and tools. The ORC is a blunt instrument, a 2-Wound safety net with decent ARM, because when you play PanO, every unit has to put itself in the Line of Fire in order to achieve a goal.

    For other factions, the toolbox is bigger, the range of options wider. So they're less likely to need the blunt instrument.

    @Maksimas makes a similar point above.
     
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  16. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Since this is a point involving HI, I shall even extrapolate!... because of course I would...

    Yeah, Haqq is better known for asymmetrical warfare, and the Janissarie is the most symmetrical HI they've got, barring the Azra'Il, since at least the Fasid has a toolbox and the Ayyar lmao has a Holoprojector.

    For Nomads, it's the case of them having a large list of great MI for a simmiliar price range alongside the competition from Riotss, Hollow Men and even the Geckos, not to mention Tasskmasters or Kriza.

    For the Shang Ji, it'ss just unlucky to be stuck in a faction where it's basically expected to at least take one HI, but even that would be considered a rarity. And among those HI is a metric ton of competition, direct and indirect that the Shang Ji is just forgotten if nothing else.

    Suryats actually make some decent sense though, I hear. T:
     
  17. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Big problem of Shang Ji is the lack of really diffentiated loadouts. They need some type of grenades, maybe a LFT with their Spitfire, any kind of gear and weapon mix that could really make them the HI you want in your link, not something you pay so much for that little difference with Zuyong and Tai Sheng (though the HRL is quite unique in IA). Basically, the Shang Ji seems to be the specialist with a combi and LFT of your team for 10 pts more than a Zuyong (and too little more survivability in addition). MULTI Rifle everywhere paired with the LFT would mark some signature, grenades (Nimbus or standard) too. If Zuyong are your link fillers and long range troopers and Hai Dao your specialist, Shang Ji should be your door kicker. And they still don't fit this place in your team. A shame to me as the potential is here.

    But in PanO, ORCs have only comparison in NCA. In ASA and VIRD, they are the only HI with long range weapons available and don't cost too much. Not sure the core is really needed at the start of the game, though. Pulling the core bonuses during the game seems more devastating to me.
     
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  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    The Orc's biggest problem is what makes Orc only Fireteams so bad. High, expensive stats and nothing to leverage it.
    Paying for ARM4, BS14 and PH14 once in a Fireteam is worth it to protect a HMG.
    Paying for ARM4, BS14 and PH14 to get the Upgrade for modless, Combirifle wielders who never heard of Grenades and CC is where they cease to function.

    Now slap that HMG in a Link with cheap Specialists, utility options like Mines and Sensor and you're happy to leverage those Core Fireteam boni for free. That is until the overall threat level on the table goes down and the Orc can take it home by himself or with his buddies as needed.
    You have the options and flexibility to allow that Vanilla flavoired HMG to achieve what you need and that ultimately is what's important.
     
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  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Indeed, I sure do wish that ORCs had gotten grenades. That PH14...
     
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  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Well, now I'm thinking about ORC Core options.

    For NCA I see two interesting things you can do, and one more vanilla choice:

    1. Go with the Aquila, Black Friar and Bipandra to maximise your impact as a midrange combat unit with Specialist support. Probably best in missions requiring taking and holding objectives or territory.

    ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44)
    ORC Boarding Shotgun + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36)
    AQUILA FTO (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 59)
    BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    BIPANDRA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)

    2.5 SWC | 190 Points

    2. Cheaper, running the ORC Hacker with TinBot support, and maintaining Specialist numbers:

    ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44)
    ORC Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 42)
    ORC Boarding Shotgun + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36)
    BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    BIPANDRA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)

    3 SWC | 173 Points

    3. The actually "low cost" option, which still retains a fair amount of tactical flexibility and options for combat in a variety of situations:

    ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44)
    ORC Boarding Shotgun + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36)
    ORC Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35)
    BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    BIPANDRA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)

    2.5 SWC | 166 Points

    Now, I'm not sure that ANY of those are really "great" choices for NCA. I'd think long and hard about any of them hit the table in a seriously competitive game which I really wanted to win.

    But at the same time, I don't think they are terrible either. The first one is going to be pretty frightening once it gets into the midfield, and NCA probably has the support options to get it there (if you can't just bully your way through with a BS17 B5 HMG in the Core anyway).

    I'd probably lean into a Peacemaker and/or Locust Boarding Shotgun in the midfield to help deal with threats that are too tough for the Fireteam to handle, but one of my biggest concerns is that it's going to be hard to build up to high orders in the PanOceania Sectorial which probably most rewards pushing up to (or past) the 15 order mark.

    For Varuna you are almost certainly going to lean into the Varuna ORC options rather than the Vanilla ORCs, so that's where I'll focus looking at:

    1: The HMG is here with the TinBot again, backed up by Patsy (who brings great options and flexibility for her cost, as well as the option to split off as a Haris if you take casualties and/or want to back this up with a Fusilier Core and swap out) and the HRL on the Kamau giving yet more flexibility.

    ORC (Varuna Div.) (Multiterrain: Aquatic/Jungle, Stealth) HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 45)
    ORC (Varuna Div.) (Multiterrain: Aquatic/Jungle, Stealth) Boarding Shotgun + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 37)
    PATSY GARNETT Submachine Gun, Nimbus Plus Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37)
    KAMAU Heavy Rocket Launcher, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)
    KAMAU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

    4 SWC | 164 Points

    2: The more expensive option pulls in another ORC (in my case the Hacker, but you might go for the Feuerbach or even a Multi Rifle option for that choice) instead of the second Kamau, but ends up being very expensive (although still VERY strong).

    ORC (Varuna Div.) (Multiterrain: Aquatic/Jungle, Stealth) HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 45)
    ORC Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) (Varuna Div.) (Multiterrain: Aquatic/Jungle, Stealth) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 43)
    ORC (Varuna Div.) (Multiterrain: Aquatic/Jungle, Stealth) Boarding Shotgun + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 37)
    PATSY GARNETT Submachine Gun, Nimbus Plus Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37)
    KAMAU Heavy Rocket Launcher, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)

    4.5 SWC | 185 Points

    In Varuna you've got lots of great support options, which is good but also highlights what you are competing with. At the same time it does have more ways to threaten without high SWC cost so it makes that aspect of these choices easier than elsewhere.

    Although you could build an ORC Core with Rao in Acontecimento, I'm not sure that option is even worth exploring and MO simply don't have the ORC (with the Hospital Knight Core probably being the nearest equivalent).

    These end up feeling like something you could build a list around, but don't seem highly competitive.
     
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