Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

No, because nowhere does it say either 'face to face' or something about comparing to attackers.

I'm seriously starting to think you're being deliberately obtuse, and stirring the pot just to see how pissed off you can get people.

So, let's go back to the wiki:

So, you are telling me that you cannot Declare Dodge as your ARO if no-one shoots at you?

Review the Order Expenditure Sequence, please, the ARO must be declared BEFORE you know what the Active unit is doing.

Even if no-one shoots at you, nothing has happened that makes the Dodge declaration invalid. Ergo, you must be rolling a Normal PH Roll, which then allows you to Move, as per the bullet point starting "In Reactive Turn only,..."

 

That's a known issue with the rules, though, so Ginrei is technically correct on that one. No excuses for it, we just need to ignore that it says "attacker" instead of "enemy active model" in a few places in order to actually be able to play the game. At this point it's hardly worth comment on and just buckle up and wait for N3.5 or N4.

 

You can, but only because of the FAQ:

Q: Can you declare a Dodge ARO even if the Order generating that reaction does not include an Attack?
A: Yes.

 

To provide an example of how rules could be written in a less confusing manner: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr702/#16a

So, technically, if we post this question once a week, it will be a candidate for the next FAQ? :P

 

I'm not familiar with what this FAQ is fixing. Is it this first description below, found under the Dodge rule?

"This Common Skill allows the user to attempt to evade an Attack against him. "
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I assume the FAQ is doing more than simply allowing us to declare the Dodge ARO too? Is it just assumed the roll will now be a normal roll instead of FTF roll for this effect below?

• This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).

But any connections or assumptions must end there? In situations against an Order that doesn't include an attack... this effect and FTF roll below does not get to become a normal roll?

• Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.

 

It fixes the below requirement.
http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Dodge

REQUIREMENTS

The user must be able to draw LoF to the attacker.

 

I don't see how the FAQ fixes or removes the LoF requirement.

Edit, oh the attacker part...

 

@Mahtamori But how does this rule/effect requirement below get met from a Move+Move?

• This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).

 

It doesn't and it doesn't need to. There's a different effect of Dodge that allows you to make a 2" move

 

I'll have to disagree. The other effect regarding the 2" move refers to a "successful Dodge" as a requirement. How do you define this term?

I define it as successfully passing this roll:

• This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).

It's the only rule/line telling you what kind of roll to make and what attribute you're using. So the term is either referring to that, or it must stand on it's own. It doesn't stand on it's own as there are no instructions to follow to make that successful roll.

 

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Normal_Rolls

 

I don't think that solves anything. It's been put forth in this thread that when an effect references a FTF roll, the roll being made MUST be a FTF roll or the effect is not valid.

Dodge has several such references. I have yet to hear an argument that explains why these two effects are valid...

• In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches.
• This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).

While this effect is not valid:

• Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.

The only way you can make a Normal roll Dodge successful, is to change the FTF roll required into a Normal roll. But in what way are we turning that FTF roll into a Normal roll that doesn't also apply to the effect of evading the attack?

 

As has been made clear in the FAQ, there is no requirement that there is an Attack for the user to declare Dodge. The point about allows Face-to-face against attacks is one of the effects of the Dodge, not the whole of Dodge. It is in fact clear that you can also Dodge Template weapons with Normal roll.
Same with movement in Reactive turn. It requires Dodge to be successful, not that Dodge face-to-face is successful. If you Dodged a template weapon, or in fact rolled a Dodge without any attack coming in, you can move.

 

List out all those situations and show how the rules explain the steps to be taken by the player. Now try to do the same for a Dodge ARO after a Move+Move or Berserk Attack.

 

The effect to move during reactive turn when Dodging doesn't require the roll to be a face to face.
The effect to avoid attacks do, because that particular effect says that it does.

It is not the entire skill that requires an FTF, only certain parts of it, as specified by each individual effect.

 

Ok, where and what does it say is required for that effect to trigger?

So you're saying that each individual effect specifies what is required to trigger it? Are they essentially independent of each other, unless otherwise stated?

 

In the dodge effect bullet points (that was already quoted before at least half a dozen times):
In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches.

The trigger is a success. To know what a success here, you need to consult either the normal roll or the opposed roll page (depending on which roll you did)

That's the opposite. The effects all have the same requirement unless specified. What's why word like "Face to Face Roll" are importants

 

Well i've asked specific questions just as many times regarding this exact point. The response as you've pointed out, doesn't provide the answer.

I almost agree with you. The trigger isn't a success. It's a 'successful Dodge'. But what a 'successful Dodge' means is not found on the normal roll or opposed roll pages. If it is, please show me where. Using a Dodge ARO in response to a Move+Move as the situation.

 

Each individual effect, bullet point, or group of bullet point, within a skill can have a series of conditions (expressed in free form sentences) that need to be met in order for the effect to occur. A single skill can be more complex than a single effect. In case of Dodge you have three distinct "main" effects; to face to face attacks, to gain 2" of movement, and to avoid templates.
These are not co-dependent. Avoiding attacks has the condition that it is a face to face does not mean that to move 2" also has the condition that you engage in a face to face (but you must still win the roll for Dodge to take any effect at all, as is governed by Face to Face type rolls). The 2" movement has the condition that you are in reactive turn, but this doesn't affect your ability to Face to Face attacks in the active turn.

 

How is this not enough?