Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

A normal roll is one you do with no opposition, like playing Blackjack with one card against no one else... You either roll your PH or less and sucess in a Disengage, or roll over your PH in which case you won't Disengage.

When a Berserker hits you in melee, there is no way to avoid the damage, and if he declares his second short skill after you he can choose to use or not Berseker (if you dodge, he will 'zerk. If you hit back, he may decide to not use the skill to keep the troop as tied up as possible. For example, a Krakot Vs an Asura).

 

The movement is not related to a face to face roll :
In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches.

Movement is not related to a face to face roll because you don't need to be attacked to dodge.
Example : Active trooper declare move, reactive trooper declare dodge, active trooper declare move. Reactive trooper roll the dice, rolls a success and then move.

Successfull normal (unopposed) roll is defined in the rules (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Normal_Rolls)
To make a Normal Roll and find out if a troop is successful when performing a Skill, simply roll one d20 and compare the result against the relevant Attribute of the troop performing the action. If the result on the die is equal to or lower than the Attribute, the Skill is successful, and the troop achieves its goal.


For the second part, see above : avoiding damage clearly state an opposed roll is needed, movement do not

 

@xagroth & @Arkhos94 & @psychoticstorm
When Berserk Attack is declared an enemy trooper is making an attack against me. If I declare Dodge I'm going to make a FTF roll to avoid that attack and damage. I don't see anything in Berserk Attack that prevents me making that FTF Dodge to avoid the attack. What I see is Berserk Attack turning that FTF roll to avoid the attack into a Normal roll. I don't see that as a cancellation, only as a different type of roll required now to succeed. So wouldn't the effects of that roll still be valid upon success?

I understand why this isn't ideal, because it's a clear conflict with a normal attack roll against a normal dodge roll. And we can't successfully avoid the attack while allowing that attack to succeed. But that is how the RAW play out to me.

 

Yes. That's the bit that stops it having any effect on the opponent's CC Attack. Dodge stops incoming Attacks (that require a Roll) by beating them in a FtF Roll.

• Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.

 

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Berserk

This means you do not make a FtF roll of any kind, but a Normal Roll, making a specific indication of what happens for EVERY troopter that chooses Attack.
If they choose to Dodge, it is a Normal Roll, thus you can Disengage, but not avoid the hit in any way, because the Berserker ignores anything and hits you.

 

For a rule to turn X into Y... X must first take place in some capacity. Any requirement checks must be passed for X to activate in the first place.

Berserk Attack does nothing to prevent the above taking place. Berserk Attack only "Turns the Face to Face Roll into a Normal Roll. Both troopers make a Normal Roll, instead of the usual Face to Face Roll."

Berserk Attack DOES NOT PREVENT the target trooper from declaring any FTF rolls. A CC attack ARO is actually a FTF roll right up until it gets turned into a Normal Roll.

I don't think that's an accurate description. Berserk doesn't ignore anything and hit you... that's not in the rules anywhere. Berserk Attack turns the FTF roll into a Normal roll. Why are you reading more into it than that?

That's not how it's written. That bit doesn't prevent Dodge having any effect on the Berserk Attack. Again, why are you reading more into the rule than what's there? Berserk Attack only turns the FTF roll into a Normal roll.

After Applying Berserk Attack's effects, the Dodging player would follow these rules...

• Allows the user to make a Normal Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.

Edit, Maybe this is easier to follow:

1. The Dodging players goes to make a FTF roll to avoid the Berserk Attack
2. Berserk Attack turns that roll into a Normal roll.
3. The Dodging players makes a Normal roll to avoid the Berserk Attack

 

There is no before or after in Infinity with regards to effect resolution, the effects of Berserk and Dodge are both applied at the same time without prejudice. Dodge states it will be a Face to Face roll against effects directly targeting the user, Berserk states all Face to Face rolls will be Normal rolls. Due to their effects, Berserk takes precedence not because of prejudice but because the effects are not diametrically opposed and can be applied at the same time without conflict.

 

For them to affect one another, they have to be FtF. That’s the whole point of Berserk turning things into Normal rolls. They both succeed or fail without respect to what the other does, hence the possibility of both taking wounds from successes. Once Berserk has been declared, neither roll affects the other one whit.

 

A normal roll of dodge can only avoid damage from mines and direct template weapon.

 

Huh? That is how it's written. Dodge stops incoming attacks by winning the FtF Roll. A Dodge with a Normal Roll will only help against Direct Template Weapons (excluding Intuitive Attack).

 

Why does applying the effects simultaneously change anything in the end? We're still turning that FTF roll into a Normal roll. The roll still exists and should be brought to it's resolution. Turning/changing something into something else doesn't negate it. We simply continue under the new parameters.

Your statement I've quoted and put in bold above is not a rule.

Where are the rules regarding Dodge as a Normal roll? I think it's far more likely this rule interaction of Dodge vs Berserk Attack was overlooked and is in clear opposition to each other.

 

Upon further reading, you are correct on that point that the Dodge does not have a rule for normal roll.
This would mean that Dodge, by those rule box only, can never dodge a templates on a normal roll, it must be a FtF.

So why does dodging template works ? Because there is an Effect under Direct Template Weapon saying they can be dodged on a Normal roll at PH (or PH-3 in cases mentioned in other effects of Template). There is no Effect under Berserk that gives that same clause of allowing it to be dodged on a Normal Roll.

 

Of course not, it's a statement, based on the rules.

As others have posted, they're in the Dodge text. Protecting you from attacks requires a FtF Roll (with some exceptions as listed in the Dodge text for templates). The other effects like getting to disengage require a successful Roll, again as listed in the Dodge rules text.

I can categorically state that the interaction was not overlooked. People have explained how the rule works, with supporting rules quotes.

 

Because Dodge requires the roll to be a Face to Face in order to avoid the effect. (Direct Template Weapons have a special rule that states Dodge also works against them).
Since the roll no longer can be a Face to Face, Dodge can no longer be used to avoid the CC Attack.

 

What I'm about to say pertains to @Robock 's statement as well. Your quoted statement above in bold, is again, not a rule requirement.

FTF rolls and Normal rolls are simply being stated within the Dodge rules because those are the definitions of the roll being made in each case. There's no opposing roll to Dodge a mine, so it is by definition, a Normal roll. A normal roll is not a requirement for Dodging a mine. The same way a FTF roll isn't a requirement for Dodging an attack.

The FTF roll isn't a requirement to Dodge. If it is, why does it not apply to all Dodge effects. At the very least, if Berserk Attack really does prevent us from Dodging the attack, shouldn't it also prevent disengaging? Shouldn't a Move + Move with ARO Dodge prevent moving too?

 

Nobody is claiming that it's a Requirement. It's an Effect, which only applies if it's followed exactly. If it's not followed, it's not applied.

Because different Effects are worded differently.

Avoiding enemy attacks (with the exceptions already mentioned) happens in FtF Rolls.
Other Effects of a Dodge only require a successful Roll, without mentioning what type of Roll is needed.

 

This rule to be exact (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Direct_Template_Weapons)
Affected troopers can Dodge the Attack of a Direct Template Weapon by passing a Normal PH Roll (or PH-3 in the cases mentioned previously under Effects).

It's also written on the dodge rule under "Dodging Template Weapons"

I think it make the argument of dodge not preventing berserk attack even stronger. The only exception to "dodge prevent damage only if the roll is face to face" needed to be clearly written in the rule to work, and it had to be written twice (both in template and dodge rule) to hammer it down

See above, exception of dodge working without face to face in case of template is written in the rule

You already received an answer to this, dodge effect from the rule :

• Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks. => Face to face roll is required (I put it in bold) for this effect

[...]

• In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches. => no mention of face to face roll only sucess is required (sucess being defined here http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Face_to_Face_Rolls and here http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Normal_Rolls)

 

You just said you're not saying a FTF roll is a requirement. But then you go on to say that the other effects don't mention what roll is NEEDED. So does avoiding the attack say what roll is needed or not? (edit, do you mean not a requirement for all effects, just the one?)

You've said they happen in FTF rolls... this is exactly what the Dodge rule assumes. But now we have a rule interaction that turns, what is a FTF roll, into a Normal roll. And in most cases, making a Normal Dodge roll is intuitive just like with a mine. But this isn't intuitive, the attack to be avoided is a normal roll, and the Dodge is a normal roll. I see no explanation given on how to handle this in the rules.

@Arkhos94 Thanks for the links, But that doesn't add anything new. Those rules are simply calling the roll whatever it is in each case.

 

You have a very destructive way of reading the rules where the objective seems to be to make all interpretations of the rule invalid rather than find the most valid interpretation. At some point during these discussions you're going to have to also answer in which way your interpretation deals with and is more valid than the community's interpretation rather than demand that the community disprove yours all the time.

Dodge doesn't require the roll to be a Face to Face, the specific effect to avoid attacks do.

 

That's what we are telling you : the rule calls a rolls an opposed roll where an opposed roll is necessary or simply mention a sucess when the type of roll doesn't matter.

Read the quoted rules with that in mind