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Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by paraelix, May 10, 2019.

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  1. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    It's been repeatedly conceded at this point that the rule should have been written with more explicit clarity.
     
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  2. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    True. It functions as is, but could be slightly clearer.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It doesn't function as-is, because it never states that it applies to non-FtF rolls explicitly, so we don't know *why* it's said to apply in that circumstance.
     
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  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It says it applies to all CC rolls without respect to what the bearer chooses to do, and the examples lay that out in detail, showing how it works. What more do you need?
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It doesn't specifically call itself out as an exception to the "CC skills only inflict penalties on FtF rolls" general rule for CC skills, the way it does with its own ability to be used on Engage.

    Regarding the example, it's not a good rules structure to have rules be defined in the examples.
     
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  6. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It states it applies to CC rolls without limiting itself, and the examples lay that out clearly, giving FtF and Normal examples to reinforce that universal application. A different structure might be your preference, but read without willful obtuseness, it stands just fine.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You do realise that the problem here is that the example directly contradicts the rules text? Read the "Opponent MOD" in the chart I quote below. i-Kohl is a CC Special Skill. The natural question to ask is if the CC Special Skill i-Kohl reduces your opponent's Berserker's CC, does that mean Martial Arts L1 does so as well?

    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/CC_Special_Skills

    How to Read CC Charts
    Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements:

     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The problem is that there's a separate rule that specifically limits it to FtF rolls; if a rule is being ignored it would help to have an explicit mention of this, and since this is actually done elsewhere in the entry for i-kohl with respect to Engage, it's clearly something that at least one person who wrote the Infinity rules understands.
     
  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think we have agreed on all this, do we need to keep discussing it?
     
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  10. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Save for i-Kohl itself giving a blanket “affects CC rolls” statement without limiting itself to FtF or Normal rolls and examples laying it out in detail. Again, might it be improved? Perhaps. Recognizing the specific > general concept does, however, does allow it to stand out its own. General CC charts apply to FtF, i-Kohl applies to all CC rolls, as stated in the rule text and examples. Again, in my opinion, it could be a tick cleaner, but the level of confusion some wish to take from it is, once more in my opinion, little more than willful obtuseness.
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    My group has been playing it as if it did, though we may need to re-read the rules and see if that is actually supported by RAW.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sure, and Sixth Sense only says you get to respond with a Face to Face roll to people shooting you from behind, but you can respond with a DTW. It's an endemic problem throughout the ruleset rather than a problem with this rule; the rules fail at using precise language and expect the reader to make guesses to have a complete ruleset.
     
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  13. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that is how I am used to handle it as well.

    I think the problem is in the rules for Berserk, not i-Kohl:

    NOTE*: Turns the Face to Face Roll into a Normal Roll. Both troopers make a Normal Roll, instead of the usual Face to Face Roll. Whoever declares an Attack and passes their Normal Roll forces the enemy to make an ARM Roll, and as a result both combatants may suffer Damage. ​

    To me this note's effects take place after all MODs are calculated, as this isn't a normal Normal Roll.
    And the third sentence is more of an example, or refers to the 'general CC attack',
    because RAW it would turn a E/M2 CCW into a N CCW.

    But yeah, it is often hard to tell which rule is 'more general' and which 'more specific',
    to be able to apply them in the right 'order'.
     
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  14. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    thats not how that rule works.

    Berserk does not take MA Mods, it only takes Ikhol mods because the Ikhol rules call out affecting berserk in the rules.

    the rules for Berserk+Martial arts are absolutely clear. No Face to Face, No Negative modifiers applies.

    While the rules for Ikhol could be clearer, it is still given the exception to the above in the examples which is the only reason it applies.
     
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  15. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, you seem very convinced of your own opinion.

    I would not call that "call out", just "mention in an example". But okay.

    Well, to me they are not absolutely clear.
    As the example for i-Kohl is a clear contradiction to the general F2F rule, it should be mentioned in the rule-text, if this only applies to i-Kohl.

    The actual rule text does not specify this.
    We only have the example in the i-Kohl rules that contradict the rules for normal Normal rolls,
    where no negative mods for the target would apply.

    But as we do not have an example for Berserk vs MA L1/3/5 (or any rule text specifying this),
    one can as well conclude from the fact that i-Kohl works against Berserk,
    that Berserk does not turn the roll into a normal Normal roll,
    but a special Normal roll, where all negative mods are still applicable,
    but neither combatant can cancel out the opponents successes with his/her own.

    This way there would not be a rule contradiction,
    just another very hidden case of 'specific over general'.

    So your claim is "even if the example in i-Kohl contradicts the rule-text for CC Special Skills and Berserk, and the rules-text for i-Kohl says nothing about this special exception, I go with the example."

    My claim is "The rules are not clear here. The only interpretation that works without a contradiction within the rules, is that the Normal Roll granted by Berserk is not a normal Normal Roll, but a special Normal Role. This is backed by the example for i-Kohl."

    But as you seem so convinced of your own opinion,
    I guess we can only agree to disagree.

    I am not convinced by your interpretation,
    so I think that this needs some offical clarification.
     
  16. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a fundamental concept we need to consider here. What are examples? Examples show how the rules are applied in game using various situations. Examples are not additional rules or exceptions. So when I read the I-Khol example vs Berserk I ask the same questions as @daszul

    1. Is Berserk Attack a FTF roll (initially) against MA and Ikhol plus other CC skills?
    2. Do I apply all opponent CC mods like MA-L3 to the Berserk attacker BEFORE turning that FTF roll into a normal roll for each trooper?

    To make the rules and examples fit, I have to conclude, Yes, to the above.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I wish.
     
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  18. Bohrdog

    Bohrdog Santathematics

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    I think my group has been playing it wrong, I can't find the no opponent mods in normal CC. Can someone point me in the right direction.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Here.

    Notably,


    Opponent MOD: A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll.

    So the mods applied to enemies by CC special skills only apply when making FtF rolls, as per the general rules which govern all CC special skills.
     
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  20. Bohrdog

    Bohrdog Santathematics

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    Thanks
     
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