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Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

Discussion in 'Rules' started by paraelix, May 10, 2019.

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  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    OK, fine, we will follow the usual legal procedure for precedents.

    Following that same precedent, if the designers had intended you to be able to Dodge a Berserked CC attack, they would have written an exception into the Berserk rules just like how they wrote an exception into Direct Template Weapons. (It would probably be better if those exceptions were also written in Dodge, I will admit. But the rules are not perfectly written.)

    It's not there, and in fact there is an official statement that you cannot Dodge a Berserked CC attack (where?).

    Also, Page 4 of the 11APR2019 Infinity FAQ says:
    If there is no attack (ie, no action affecting the AROing model), then there cannot be a FtF Roll.

    If Dodge must be a FtF roll, why would you be able to declare it if you're not going to be affected by someone's action?
     
  2. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    I think at this point subtle troll is obvious.
     
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  3. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Subtle is stretching it, ¿no?
     
  4. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Well, subtle to start; masquerading as merely obtuse. The mask has slipped now.
     
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  5. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    De acuerdo.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Welp, that's easy enough to deal with.
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Really should have done that about 8 pages ago, but that's my bad. Anyway, this is also why I haven't been particularly active on the rules subforums since N3 dropped. Gets me all pissed off.
     
  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I'm also interested in that oficial statement. If that exists then perfect, we can take that as a kind of unpublished FAQ and call it a day. Anyone have a link?

    But I don't think this is interaction is that important anyway, and it's probably why this wasn't asked that often before. If you choose to dodge versus a CC attack odds are that your own CC sucks so the model is probably done, berserk or not. If you can fight back reliabily you will choose CC most of the time (because your CC will be way higher than your PH, you will have a decent CCW and you will also have also other abilities to back you up) so this rules interaction is not relevant in that case.


    I understand why Berserk could nulify dodge but it could go in the other way easily. I mean, no one would say that passing a normal Dodge roll would cancel a medic action in the other side of the table because those 2 abilities doesn't interact with each other but in this case we have 2 abilities interacting (original FtF) that are transformed in normal rolls by Berserk.
    • When we are talking about a CC attack both hits because as it's now a normal roll no success is nulified by the other roll.
      • Successful attack = ARM/BTS roll
        • We have 2 results that doesn't interact with each other, so they just trade hits.
    • When we are talking about a Dodge, a successful dodge in that context equals to no damage plus disengage. In this case we have 2 successful rolls with oposite effects:
      • Successful attack = Attack hits (ARM/BTS roll)
      • Successful dodge = Evade attack (no ARM/BTS roll) + disengage
        • Opposite effects, both successful.
    The fact that in the Dodge states that a FtF roll is needed could be a requirement or could be the general case that is tweaked by berserk, and as the full mechanics of a FtF roll transformed into normal rolls aren't explained it also creates uncertain (because again, passing the normal roll could equal to passing the FtF roll in that situation or not). And to add more salt to the wound then we have the case of unoposible attacks (direct templates) that can be dodged without a FtF roll, just by passing the normal roll, and Berserk kind of transform the CC attack in an unoposible attack.


    I'm not saying this works this way, but it's not that clear why it bypass Dodge if that is the intended interaction because that interaction not being stated could mean different things:
    • Dodge NEEDS to pass a FtF roll to dodge a non direct template attack, beserk transforming the FtF attack into a normal attack deny this possibility. Dodge is useless versus berseker (you can still dissengage and move tho)
    • Dodge NEEDS to pass a FtF roll to dodge a non direct template attack, beserk transform the FtF attack into a normal roll but as originally it was a FtF roll any success would apply as if you would have succeeded that FtF roll. Dodge can now fully nulify a Berserk attack
    • Dodge doesn't need to pass a FtF roll to dodge a non direct template attack, it was stated that way because with the exception of berseker attack any other non-direct template attack. A normal roll being used to dodge direct template attacks can be generalized to mean that a successful dodge will dodge any incoming attack (being berserk the only exception aside direct templates)
    Any of the above could be true with the RAW, the third being the less likely as it requires generalization of rules that is a dangerous path. Again, this interaction isn't game breaking but an official clarification would be nice imo.
     
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  9. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    My personal take is that Berserk changes the kind of roll, but it does not edit the rules text of Dodge. Therefore we are on bullet point one above.
     
  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    From a pure RAW point of view I agree with you, especially when Dodge states FtF. But when I consider the whole picture is weird that Berserk is the only attack that is 100% unavoidable and there is also I-Khol applying FtF mods to a normal roll, considering all of that I like more the second bullet point interpretation (normal roll resolved as if it were a successful FtF).

    So yeah, a clarification about that and the berserk-MA interaction would be great.
     
    toadchild likes this.
  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    See earlier in the thread:
    To state it explicitly - Berserk vs Dodge is two Normal Rolls, which have no effect whatsoever on each other, and cannot stop each other.
     
  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Perfect, ty @ijw for confirming it.

    In this matter, is officialy confirmed the interaction MA-Berserk? Does it work as I-khol or as it's not stated anywhere other CC special skills doesn't apply any negative bonus to the berserk model?
     
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

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    Works exactly as it is described in the example.

    I also close the thread I thin any discussion that was going to happen has happened.
     
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