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Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

Discussion in 'Rules' started by paraelix, May 10, 2019.

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  1. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    With lots of patience as well.
     
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  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Funnily enough... one of my students just gave me this today as an end of the year present.
    Meant for DMs, but certainly applies to me as well.
     
  3. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    NICE! I’m actually sitting through a school end of year celebration right now, I could use that pin...
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Based on your conduct in this thread, you definitely deserve that. But I think it's under-rating your Patience stat a bit...
     
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  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. I didn't contradict you by showing that there are normal rolls. I contradicted you by showing there are normal AND FTF rolls.

    Maybe you should read my post in its entirety. I gave one example of each because the majority of your post discussed both rolls.

    Sabin is doing a good job explaining his points and I have studied them as it were. I've also disagreed providing my own evidence. Just because you agree with him and not me, doesn't mean i need to 'study' any more than he/you need to study mine.

    We're clearly at an impasse in the way we view mechanics to determine rolls. Without new information, i'm not changing my view that Dodge is written to be a FTF roll and must start out that way. Not as some undefined roll. We have examples of undefined skills like CC/BS Attack. They are written differently than Dodge and have their own rules to determine what kind of roll they are.
    Again, we're at an impasse.

    You guys are telling me all actions start off as neither FTF or Normal rolls and the situation then dictates whether that action is a FTF or normal roll. Then we apply the skill effects that meet the type or roll executed. I will believe this whole heartily when i see the rules explaining it. I don't ask for much.

    Until then, I'm going to use skills and make the rolls they tell me to make. If the situation or another skill changes the roll type, I will move forward accordingly.

    Which one is Reset? Both. The skills does tell us. It gives actions to take based on both rolls. The FAQ also supports this:
    Q: If a troop is already in Immobilized-1 state from a previous Hacking Attack and suffers a second Hacking attack and wins the Face to Face Roll with a Reset, does this cancel the first Immobilized state?
    A: Yes. Any successful unbeaten Reset roll will cancel the IMM-1 state.​


    ***You can all be as condescending as you want and talk about everyone's patience with me, but I've been just as patient with all of you.
     
  6. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    All this discussion and I still don't know if MA affects Berserk roll or not, since by RAW I-Khol shouldn't but apparently it does (and according to @ijw it's missing from Skill description).
    Good thing NBW explicitly mentions I-Khol has no effect on it.
     
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  7. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    I-Kohl does affect Berserk, because the examples aren’t merely demonstrations of the rule, they’re part of the rule text, and the examples explicitly lay out the interaction of I-Kohl and Berserk.
     
  8. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    We can argue about poor formatting on this rule for another 15 pages, but I accept that this is how it works.
    MA examples list only MA5 against various situations and never Berserk. Berserk only has an example against a non-MA unit.
    Now the charts are described as listing the opponent's FtF roll, so by this MA shouldn't work against Berserk. But with I-Khol's exception I would like a clarification if that isn't the case here as well. I think last time it came up we ruled it as MA not affecting Berserk, but it comes up rarely.
     
  9. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    In your opinion, based on your interpretation of the rules, what are the effects of dodge for the reactive model in the following circumstances?

    1.
    Galwegian declare first skill, move into BtB
    Fusilier declares dodge
    Galwegian declares second skill CC (no modifiers)

    2.
    Galwegian declare first skill, move into BtB
    Fusilier declares dodge
    Galwegian declares second skill BS with pistol

    3.
    Galwegian declare first skill, move into BtB
    Fusilier declares dodge
    Galwegian declares second skill BS Chain Rifle

    4.
    Galwegian declare first skill, move into BtB
    Fusilier declares dodge
    Galwegian declares second skill idle

    5.
    Galwegian declare first skill, move into BtB
    Fusilier declares dodge
    Galwegian declares second skill CC (berserk)

    For the record, my answers are:
    1. FtF against CC, may disengage if roll is won
    2. FtF against BS, may disengage if roll is won
    3. Normal, avoid hit and disengage if roll is passed
    4. Normal, disengage if roll is passed
    5. Normal, disengage if roll is passed (no ability to avoid hit)
     
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  10. HeckMeiser

    HeckMeiser Well-Known Member

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    According to the last ten (ten+?) pages of this thread, any ambiguity in the wording of a rule means that it's completely unusable. It's impossible to come up with a reading of the unclear rule based on the context provided by other rules and examples of play, and consensus of other players on the intent of the rule. Everything should be written exactly literally and in exhaustive detail.
     
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  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be so hard on him. The disconnect is coming from (if I understand @Ginrei's position) what rules tell you whether a roll is FtF or Normal. Also, they have said a couple times now that they agree on how to play it based on RAI.

    His position seems to be that skills are defined one way or another (or both) in the effects of the skill.

    One of my big qualms with this is that there are two very very common skills that have no such "definitions" in the effects boxes of the skills. They have argued that if you just look outside the skill box to the supplemental rules of the skills, you'll find your clarification, but I think that's applying a bit of a double standard.

    My position is that the skills declared only affect the type of roll insofar as they adhere to the definitions for the types of rolls in the "rolls" section of the rules. Do the two skills affect the opposing troopers? Yes, FtF. No, Normal.

    My view is that you can and should look outside of skills entirely. I even disagree with the phrasing that "Discover is inherently a Normal Roll". The skill simply tells you what happens if you succeed with a normal roll. The fact that it is currently impossible for the roll to be anything other than a normal roll is not a feature of the skill, but a feature of the game.

    With my interpretation, if there were some future skill that allowed a camo marker to remain in the camo state while also making a roll affecting the discovering trooper, the roll would be FtF and the effects of discover would be undefined (read: null).
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I agree that this is the crux of it, and it makes abilities like berserk or hack transport aircraft* make mechanical sense.

    *HTA has some unfortunate wording that resulted in ambiguity about how to resolve ties, and I do not like the FAQ answer we got, but that is neither here nor there.
     
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  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I come to those conclusions as well but via a different interpretation of the rules. I can point to each spot in the rules where it explicitly tells me to make a roll or when to change the type of roll. I can't do that with the other interpretation/s I've been told is correct here. The other side has shown where they claim the rules back them, but my reading of those rules doesn't agree with them.

    The only issue I have following the rules based on my interpretation is when I come to #5. The ruling clears it up, but without it I'm making a normal roll to evade the Berserk Attack. Immovable object vs unstoppable force. I considered @Sabin76 's point that it's the FTF roll itself that evades the attack... but that doesn't align with using Dodge as a normal roll to evade Direct Template weapons.

    It still appears more plausible to me that my interpretation is correct and the issue with Berserk is an oversight. But I'm happy to change my mind if a more plausible interpretation is found.
    I'm curious how this is a double standard. Isn't that like saying the OES rules are supplements as well?

    It does seem weird at first that CC/BS Attack skills have their own declaration, resolution and other steps to follow outside the skill rules. But I assume this is because those skills involve using various types of weapons with their own rules.
    It sounds like you understand my stance. My issue with your stance above is that I see no written rule in support of it.

    The pages in the rules about rolls and their types do two things. They define the terminology. They also provide instructions to follow about what die to roll and how to interpret the results. The first line in each page of Normal and FTF rolls does describe when to use them... FTF: "When two or more troops act at the same time to try to thwart each other's progress" Again, that's a description, there's no actual instructions to follow. I got the impression @toadchild agreed with this in some degree, but i wasn't entirely sure.

    So for me to agree with your stance it means I'm expected to identify what skills try to thwart each others progress. That's not an explicit instruction or defined term that i'm aware of. It also means after determining the roll used in step 7, I must then validate skill effects based on the roll used. This validation is something I'd expect to read in the rules. Why do any of this when the rules tell me explicitly what rolls to use.
    I thought a little bit about something similar because it speaks to our current discussion. Would this roll really be a FTF? Discovering the trooper while it does it's own thing doesn't actually thwart it's progress. So how do players decide if that should be a FTF roll? What if we end up creating situations where we can use skills like Discover to Dodge attacks simply because we create FTF rolls.

    I think the rules tell us when to use FTF and Normal rolls for a reason. Berserk vs Dodge just seems like an oversight.
     
  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Another point. If skills like Discover were to work as you say, why does the skill mention passing a normal roll at all?

    This isn't proof of anything but, why wouldn't the rules say 'passing the appropriate roll' and etc etc? Or not mention rolls at all and just tell us the attribute? If there is an overarching rule to determine the roll type, why not let players figure that out as the rules instruct them to? What if players come to a conclusion not intended by CB?

    I'd probably feel a whole lot better about your interpretation if there was a clear definition of what skills 'thwart each others progress.'

    Edit, I feel the only reason this accepted/common interpretation hasn't caused problems in determining what skills thwart the others progress and what type of rolls to use is because our current skills tell us the rolls to use. So everyone's making the correct assumptions.
     
    #274 Ginrei, May 24, 2019
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Be careful of bending the correct rules to fit the broken ones. It's certainly tempting to try and find a way to read the rules so there's no mistakes in what's written. I'm sure I've been guilty of it from time to time, but ultimately we need to be more objective than that.
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I agree that there are errors in the rules as written.

    But I’m very confident in the assertion that whether a roll is FtF or Normal is a consequence of both players’ declarations, not an inherent part of skill descriptions.
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    For the love of all that is holy, read the Order Expenditure sequence!

    Roll types are not determined until Step 7, after the declaration of what action(s) you are making in steps 3 thru 6.

    I really don't know how much plainer that can be stated.

    Dodge's only written requirement is that "The user must be able to draw LoF to the attacker." Nowhere under the Requirements section does it say "Roll must be face to face" which should be the case if Dodge could only be executed in the event of a FtF roll.


    You have been spending the last 14 freaking pages arguing that Dodge is ONLY allowed to be a FtF roll.

    But fine.

    It's called an exception to Dodge's general rule that only a FtF roll allows you to evade damage. Because there is mechanically no way to get into a FtF roll with a Direct Template Weapon under the rules which would normally be required to allow you to Dodge to avoid damage.
    • Shoot back with a DTW? No dice are rolled, both models eat damage from the DTWs.
    • Shoot with a BS weapon? Normal Roll, and the shooter is eating the damage from the DTW.
    • Dodge? well, there you are "attempting to affect the attacker's action," but there is no way to get a FtF roll to allow you to avoid the damage as generally required by the Dodge rules. So there is an exception to the general Dodge rule that requires FtF written in the Direct Template Weapon rules (5th Bullet point under 'Effects').

    If you would like for there to be no way at all to avoid eating damage from a DTW, we can play it your way that makes Dodge impossible to declare at all because you don't know if it's going to be a FtF or Normal roll until the active player declares their second action.

    So if Dodge is impossible to declare because you don't know if it will be a FtF roll or not, WHY THE :censored: IS IT IN THE GAME AT ALL?!?

    Again, you are the only person I have ever encountered in the history of the entire Infinity forums (dating clear back to late 2006 or early 2007!) that has had a problem with how Dodges work. Given this, I'm going to have to say that the problem isn't the rules. It's you.
     
  18. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    The roll that is made is a consequence of both players actions, I agree. But your interpretation of the rules creates a different process used to arrive at what rolls to make. That process is flawed.
    It doesn't matter how plainly you state your case. I've read the OES. I disagree with your interpretation. The words written down there do not mean what you claim they mean.
    Listen, I'm not saying what you claim i'm saying. So I'd appreciate it if you really listen.

    The Dodge skill is used to make a FTF roll to evade attacks. What it is used to do is not a requirement. When activating the skill and reaching step 7, we are making a FTF roll to evade attacks. From there the FTF roll can change. I've shown the rules telling us how it can change. But it almost always starts as a FTF roll. The exception being to Dodge a direct template weapon.
    Call it an exception if you want, but I can call it precedent. What difference does it make? It shows that the ability to evade damage is determined by what the designers want you to be able to evade. Whether or not it's an exception doesn't matter, it's a rule and we follow it.

    Berserk seems very much akin to a direct template weapon. Both force a hit on the target. Yet we can evade the DTW but not the Berserk Attack. In this case Berserk Attack is the exception to all those auto-hit attacks. It's a rule/ruling and we follow it.
    You clearly haven't been reading this thread or listening to me at all. My way does not make it impossible to declare Dodge. Keep believing I'm the only person to have this issue if it makes you happy. While I know you're not the first person that either doesn't understand, or is unwilling/incapable of listening.
     
  19. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    This is a quite interesting discussion, i've enjoyed it and I think that I'll stick up for @Ginrei here. This is a quite weird interaction and the resolution is not so clear to me after reading the whole thread and the wiki entries.

    In fact if I'd have to rule it I'd say that a successful dodge would negate Berserk. Let me explain why:


    Berserk transforming the FtF rolls into normal rolls but it's not further explained.

    So What does dodge do? It allow you to evade all incoming attacks if it is successful (this is a normal roll versus direct templates or a FtF roll versus any other attack) and allow you to move 2 inches (and dissengage)
    • The key is that as Berserk is transforming the FtF roll into a normal roll it makes easier for the dodge to succeed but this doesn't negate the fact that initially it was a FtF roll so now we are stuck with 2 possible outcomes that aren't ruled:
      • Berserk turns the FtF into a normal roll and dodge a CC attack require a FtF roll so that part of the skill is ignored and the CC will hit
        • -OR-
      • Berserk turns the FtF into a normal roll but you apply all effects as if you were succeed in the FtF roll
    That is not ruled explicitely so it could work both ways, in fact the I-khol example applying the negative effect to the berserk user could tip the balance towards the second one because is a normal roll using MODs that are reserved for FtF rolls.


    Other possible way to see this is that berserk turns the CC attack into an attack alike to direct template attacks because check this:
    • Active model declares direct template attack (it will hit no matter what)
      • Reactive model declares CC / BS attack --> Both hits
      • Reactive model dodges --> If dodge is successful the hit is evaded
    • Active model declares berserk CC attack (it will hit no matter assumming a very easy normal roll)
      • Reactive model declares CC / BS attack --> Both hits
      • Reactive model dodges --> ¿¿??
    That is exactly what happens with the "bersekerized" CC attack, it will hit no matter what but it's still a CC attack and it's not stated that is immune to Dodge so if a dodge is successful versus that then the model that is dodging should be able to negate the attack, so for me this is the most coherent way to see this interaction.


    If we go for a intuitive approach,
    • CC being a FtF roll means that both models are trying to outduel each other to hit without being hit,
    • Berserk transforming both rolls into normal rolls means that one model just let his opponent hit going forward to being able to also hit easily, so it's like a careless attack.
    • Dodge is s the model focusing 100% in defense and evasion so a FtF versus a CC means one player trying to hit and the other trying to dodge
    • Dodge with berserk transforming it from FtF to a normal roll is making it easier for the dodging player, this could be seen as a careless attack that would demolish a attacking model but easier to dodge if you actually try to dodge it.

    The thing is, we lack ruling here because Berserk turning FtF rolls into normal rolls mess with this mechanic and it should be ruled as the direct template interaction was but letting dodge work versus Berserk would make sense.

    Another possible ruling that would fit (edit: this is not suported by the rules, it's just an extra ruling from the top of my head that could fill this gap):
    • If the berserker player get a critical hit in his normal roll then it would cancel a successful dodge unless the dodge is also a critical hit.
    • If both are criticals then its a draw.
     
    #279 Ogid, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
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  20. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @Ogid, I appreciate it. I really didn't expect many people to read this whole thread. Let alone decide to get involved at this stage =).

    I never even considered how Berserk Attack was akin to a direct template attack until reading Section9's last post. It just goes to show how complex and subtle the rules can be in Infinity. Based only on what's written in the rules, I agree with you and would side with Dodge evading the Berserk Attack. It makes sense as you've described thematically and also keeps the rules more consistent.

    Unfortunately, senior/staff members have ruled that you can't Dodge to evade the Berserk Attack damage. So I'm left with only being able to oppose certain members claims. Which is that the rules as written clearly and obviously support that ruling.

    At the very least, this thread has been an interesting window into how some of us look at basic mechanics. The main one being, how to determine what type of roll to use in any given situation.
     
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