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Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

Discussion in 'Rules' started by paraelix, May 10, 2019.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Be a dick if you want, but it's hard to find when the people telling me where it is... don't actually tell me where it is. Telling me the grail is on earth may be correct, but isn't all that helpful now is it?

    Take @toadchild 's explanation above, he tells me it's a normal roll because it's core game terminology. But all his examples are not situations where I'm using a skill to make a yet unidentified roll and then determining what type of roll to make. That's how others are explaining this to me. But that isn't the situation we're in. I'm using a skill that is a FTF roll and trying to figure out what happens when i'm unable to make that FTF roll. Is the skill void, does it become a normal roll, do all effects become normal rolls?

    I want to see where the rules tell me how to handle that situation. It should be easy if it's basic game play. But vague statements like it's 'core terminology' don't do this. I listed how each conclusion of his three examples was reached and took a guess what led to the third.

    It's clear you don't care about the discussion, so feel free to move on. I think understanding why the rules work the way they do is important. And if anyone thinks this rules interaction is clear and obvious, it should be just as easy to explain. If I'm a student in a classroom, and I'm not understanding it the way you're teaching it, who's at fault? Does it matter?
     
  2. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    You should consider that you may actually be Steven Crowder at a park with a sign reading “change my mind.”

    For anything further, see points 1 and 2.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
     
    #242 grampyseer, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    It is easy, it has already been written here with quote and link of the correct rules. You just refuse the explaination, even when it has been confirmed as being RAI

    The roll became normal or face to face in the resolution step (7) when you compare the different skills. It's always unidentified until you reach this step :
    • If the skills do not interract, then it's a normal roll ("This roll is used when a troop is not facing off against an enemy, but instead must prove successful in an uncontested or passively contested Skill" http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Normal_Rolls) => Does move-move interract withd dodge => No so we are in this situation
    • If the skills interract, then it's a F2F roll ("When two or more troops act at the same time to try to thwart each other's progress, Face to Face Rolls are used to determine which side acts faster and more effectively" http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Face_to_Face_Rolls) => Does BS Attack interract with dodge => Yes we are in this situation
    • This comparison includes "special" skills like berserk that prevent skills that should interact with each other to do so (dodge vs berserk cc attack => no interaction)

    Regarding dodge itself, dodge with no normal roll doesn't appliy effect that include the words "face to face" and may only apply the one with the condition "success".

    Why ? Because :
    • bullet point that mention face to face roll needs a face to face roll (It's like saying a car need gazoline to work, if you don't bring gazoline then your car won't work)
    • bullet point that mention success of a skill only need the sucess of its roll (as written in the rules : "Infinity uses 20-sided dice (commonly known as d20) to determine whether specific actions are successful." http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Rolls), no matter if the roll is F2F or norm
     
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  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    You mean room for improvement in the rules writing doesn’t excuse willfully misunderstanding them?!?!? Perish the thought!

    And (on a mildly pedantic note) the park moron is Steven Crowder.
     
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  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It has not already been written here. And again, we're not discussing RAI. I know the RAI. RAI do not change RAW. We're discussing whether the rules are clear in their wording to reach the intended conclusion. Which I've basically found by following the red box under the FTF rules. But I'm still being told that's not how it's done, so the debate continues.

    For Dodge to function like other skills where the type of roll is undetermined until step 7, there should be an open ended effect/rule in the Dodge skill telling us the attribute to use is PH. Thus letting us determine the type of roll later. However, Dodge is written differently.

    Dodge is a FTF roll, it's not an undetermined roll that is determined in step 7. It is determined when you read the rule. All the rules being quoted and the repeated attempts to tell me it's already explained haven't changed this fact.

    @grampyseer says I'm not listening, but I don't think that's true. The Dodge skill was not written with a normal roll in mind. This may not be a fact, but the evidence supports it. What is a fact is what the Dodge rules tell us. which again, is we're allowed to make a FTF roll. It doesn't say we're allowed to make any roll, or a normal roll. It doesn't even do what other skills do and just provide the attribute on it's own bullet.
     
  6. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    Thanks man! I made a mental slip, as I’d just watched something about Ben Carson.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  7. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    While it would be better if it was written in the skill, it's written in the PH attribute page that PH is the skill to dodge. it's here : http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Attributes#Physique_.28PH.29

    You may not like this information, but it has already been given to you at least twice

    You are inventing rules here, dodge is not face to face or normal per nature. You have nothing to support that (neither RAW nor RAI).

    Rolls nature can only be determined at step 7 because it depends on modifiers (that can change skill to idle) and the opponent skill
     
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  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    This is the only leg you seem to be standing on and it's already been pointed out to several times that adding such a line doesn't actually change how the skill works.

    Say it with me, "skill are not natively FtF or Normal rolls!"

    Since the skill was not intended to function as a normal roll in the active turn, there are no effects that have that (what you call "core") functionality.
     
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  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Exactly. The circumstances determine if a roll is Normal or FtF and what specific effects from the Skill apply. A Normal Dodge roll doesn’t negate an Attack, etc.
     
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I've said this more than once too. A list of skills using the PH attribute is nothing more than a list of skills that use the PH attribute. To find out how it's used, you must read the skills rules.

    A rolls nature/type can be determined whenever the rules tell us. The rules tell us how to determine an undefined roll in step 7. Do the rules tell us to redefine a predetermined roll type as well? I've never seen rules supporting that. But I have shown a rule that tells me to use a normal roll instead of a FTF roll when that FTF roll isn't available.
    That is true of other skills... But Dodge is an exception according to RAW.

    It doesn't change how the skill works in the sense that we've agreed to play it as RAI. But it does show other valid interpretations or conflicts based on RAW. At which stage your point about evade not being a term is very much a relevant one. I'm just trying to avoid imagining where the RAW take us. I'd rather focus on the idea they don't clearly and obviously take us where they intended us to go. Discussions seem less confusing that way.
     
  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    The roll is not undefined. The effects of a successful roll when it's normal on the active turn are. However, that should plainly default to "no effect".

    Again, you keep saying that the word "allows" with some words after it somehow forces the roll to be a F2F. It does not. You are reading far more into that than it actually says. It "allows" a F2F because a F2F would normally not be allowed under basic circumstances. Those "basic circumstances" are the rules on determining whether a roll is F2F or Normal.
     
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  12. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    There is no roll in the game that is inherently FtF. You can never force your opponent to contest your declaration with their own roll; in such a case it will always fall back to being a normal roll. [Technically this is false as both players are compelled to make the Lieutenant willpower roll for initiative]

    When the game rules talk generically about FtF rolls, they either mean that you have found yourself in an FtF situation due to both players’ declarations, or they are giving a roll permission to be FtF despite not meeting the normal criteria (models directly affecting one another).

    In any case: Face to Face and Normal are descriptions of rolls, not fundamental categories.

    BS Attack is FtF if your opponent targets your model with BS or CC, or if they dodge. It’s normal if they do not react or if they target a different model (fireteams, etc).

    CC is FtF if your opponent AROs with BS, CC, dodge, etc - unless berserk is used, in which case both players make normal rolls.

    Doctor is never FtF to any ARO, because it is impossible to directly affect an enemy trooper with that skill and it has no language like Dodge to allow it to be FtF.

    Discover is never FtF because while it does affect the enemy model, that effect is negated if they respond by shooting back.

    Hacking is FtF against other hacking, BS, CC, etc due to the mutual effect rule. It’s normal against no ARO or dodge, because there’s no effect and no special allowance. It’s FtF against Reset because that skill has similar wording to dodge.

    Reset, however can also be a normal roll that is used to escape IMM-1. Note that despite the “FtF” and “Normal” rolls being in separate bullet points, there is a FAQ that says that an unbeaten (and thus implicitly FtF) success can both defend against hacking and clear IMM-1.

    So to repeat: FtF and Normal are roll descriptions, not fundamental parts of their corresponding skills.
     
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  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. When i say 'undefined' I mean something like, making a BS Attack doesn't say what kind of roll(N/FTF) it is in the skill. But in the BS Attack resolution rules we are told to make our rolls and it explains how to determine whether that roll is normal or FTF. Those explicit instructions don't exist for a Dodge skill that's written quite differently.

    The normal and FTF roll rules/pages don't actually tell us anything other than what the rolls are and how to make them. The Normal Roll page tells us to make a normal roll... roll a D20 and compare the result to the attribute, equal or lower is successful. That's a rule providing instructions to follow. We can call the below rules if we want... but I think they're just facts/descriptions. They just tell us what normal and FTF rolls are. They are roll we use when blah blah. "When two or more troops act at the same time to try to thwart each other's progress" Those aren't terms I'm aware of or instructions to follow.

    Face to Face Rolls
    When two or more troops act at the same time to try to thwart each other's progress, Face to Face Rolls are used to determine which side acts faster and more effectively.
    Normal Rolls
    Normal Rolls are the most common, basic dice rolls in Infinity. This roll is used when a troop is not facing off against an enemy, but instead must prove successful in an uncontested or passively contested Skill

    BS/CC Attack skills tell us what rolls to use, Discover tells us to pass a normal WIP roll. and Dodge allows us to make a FTF roll. How many skills tell us what roll to make compared to how many skills rely on us applying these so called rules in the FTF and normal roll pages?
    Or maybe I'm not reading more into it and I'm reading only what's there. I'm trying not to make assumptions or draw conclusions the rules don't tell me to make.

    If we read the Dodge skill, without including the first two bullets, there are no instructions to follow that lead to a result. It's the first two bullets that tell us we're allowed to make a FTF roll to evade attacks using our PH attribute. Everything else about the rule is based on that. A 'successful Dodge' must be referring to those instructions as well because it's the only thing we can successfully do.
    That's a fair point but those basic circumstances are how the rules describe a FTF roll. The basic circumstances are not about how to determine whether a roll is normal or FTF. The term 'allow' is just reflecting what you've said. The writers recognize a Dodge doesn't fit the description of a FTF roll.

    No rule ever needs to use the term 'allow' because rules give us permission to do something by telling us to do it. 'Allow' is basically just artistic licence in this case. The Dodge skill could easily just say, 'make a FTF roll to...' You wouldn't invalidate the skill because it doesn't meet the description of what a FTF roll is.
     
  14. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    There is a huge difference between writing "allow" and not...

    "Allows" gives permission where none would be given otherwise. But it does not force anything. You are allowed to walk to work, but that doesn't mean that you must. This is why I say that you are reading too much into it. The use of "allow" is far more than "artistic licence [sic]"

    Writing, "Make a FtF roll..." would actually be forcing you to make such a roll. But it doesn't say that, does it? No skill does, because that would break how rolls work on a fundamental level. Your third situation upthread would result (as you pointed out) in something that's impossible, and the rules break. So why are you willfully ignoring parts of the rules (calling them "facts") that actually allow them to function in this case?

    Look over Reset again. "By passing a Face to Face WIP roll..." and later, "By passing a normal WIP roll..." Which one is it?!?! The skill doesn't tell us, because that's not the skill's job. It's the situation that tells us which it is. All the skill does is tell us what happens if we succeed, and - sometimes - puts extra conditions on those effects.
     
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  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    The rules tell a different story.

    Discover is inherently a Normal roll. The rules tell us to pass a normal roll. This is fine of course because the moment it would become a FTF the marker is revealed.

    Dodge is inherently a FTF because the rules tell us to make a FTF roll. Unfortunately the skill has some interactions that can result in a normal roll and some effects can be used in this event based on interpretation/intent or because of a ruling.
     
  16. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Your statement feels very nit picky.

    Yes, in some cases where an effect may not want to be used, 'allow' gives us the option not to use it. But in this case with Dodge, there is no negative to using the effect to evade attacks. (unless there's some way to abuse the rules now or in the future) It's the only action you can take with Dodge. The 2" move is also dependent on that actions success.

    "Make a FTF" doesn't force you. You've chosen this action by activating the skill in the first place. If a skill has different effects to execute, yes, 'make' would force one on you if you wanted the other.

    If the result of a RAW is the game breaks, that doesn't mean our interpretation of the RAW is in error. It means the RAW are in error. For our interpretation to be at fault, i'd have to word that statement differently.

    I'll look at Reset when I get a chance, that's the second time you mentioned it.
     
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It is no such thing. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

    Discover says "if the user passes a normal WIP roll..."

    This does not force any specific type of roll. What it does is tell you what happens in the event that the roll is normal and you succeed.
     
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  18. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I said there are no inherently FtF rolls, and you attempted to contradict me by showing that there are inherently normal rolls.

    There are lots of normal rolls that cannot become FtF due to the core definition of FtF - that the two models are affecting one another. I called out such a skill (Doctor) in my example.

    Please reread my previous post in its entirety rather than picking out a single line you think is wrong and ignoring the rest.
     
  19. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It doesn’t?!?!?!? Surely you must be joking!!!
     
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  20. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I also must add that @Sabin76 is doing a really good job of explaining things and you would do well to study those posts.
     
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