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Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

Discussion in 'Rules' started by paraelix, May 10, 2019.

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  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Following the order expenditure sequences, this is the correct way it works (for explaination, looks into previous quote) :

    1. Activation: The Active Player active a highlander
    2. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper.
    3. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares move with the highlander and reach contact with Line Kazak
    4. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks which of her troopers can react against the highlander and declare ARO dodge with the line kazak
    5. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order : CC attack using the CC special skill berserk
    6. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player can check whether new AROs are available (none)
    7. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls : berserk give a +6 mod to the highlander attack. No we check if both action interact with each other. Because of berserk "change the face to face roll into normal roll" the answer is no so both rolls are normal. Line Kazak roll 12, Highlander rolls 14
    8. Effects: Line Kazak take damages (14 is a crit) and fall unconscious but can still move 2" due to his sucessfull (normal roll) dodge
    9. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects : nope
    Berserk is a CC special skill that change the nature of the roll at the resolution step (7). That's what berserk RAW said. And, as has been confirmed before, it's RAI too : berserk is an attack that never miss, no matter the ARO (well, except against natural born warrior)

    Dodge effect applies only on step 8. "Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks." doesn't works because the roll was not face to face. "In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches." works because the dodge roll was a sucess.

    That way of understanding things have been confirmed by @psychostorm as "the correct rules", so that's RAI.
    Most people here came to "the correct rules" simply by reading the RAW so they not be so badly written :+1:

    Thinking "Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks." is change by berserk into "Allows the user to make a normal Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks." is an original way to read the rules, but it's not the correct one and is lacking support from anything (FAQ, example, similitude with other skill).

    But if you still think you are right, please feel free to keep up. I have blood bowl loaded on steam and a game waiting, 'night :spock-hand:
     
  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing to figure out. The skill doesn't tell you what to do as a base function because it doesn't have one! There is literally no effect if you dodge on a normal roll in the active turn. Why would that need to be spelled out when it's clear by omission?

    As I've brought up before, BS attack and CC attack have no language about normal or F2F rolls. Applying your reading of dodge to these skills, they don't do anything because it doesn't tell you what happens on a normal roll or a F2F roll in the effects.

    But, of course, that's obviously incorrect because the effects don't need to tell us what kind of roll it was unless they are specifically designed to only work with that type of roll (as with dodge).
     
    #222 Sabin76, May 21, 2019
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Edit, oh that's right, this is actually a different question.
     
    #223 Ginrei, May 21, 2019
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I believe @Arkhos94 already did this, but I'll indulge just one more time...

    Two things here. First is that it clearly spells out that counting an action as "successful" depends on what type of roll you made. The second is that it clearly gives the conditions for when you would use one type of roll over the other. Note, also, that these rules are on a higher level than the "effects" of a skill. They are a core function of the game.

    It does NOT say, "Turns the effects of an opposing skill requiring a face to face roll into requiring a normal roll," which is what it must say in order to reach your conclusions. It simply turns one type of roll into another. No more, no less. This is the literal text of Berserk. By arguing that you can change the requirement for attack avoidance from F2F to normal, you are adding rules that are not present.

    MOST skills do not care what type of roll you make in order to apply their effects. Dodge and Reset are exceptions. This is where you seem to have a problem. I'll admit that Reset is written a little cleaner than dodge, but that's also because Reset does one thing or another depending on the type of roll. Dodge could, potentially, do two things at the same time as the conditions are not mutually exclusive. The language has to be different to accommodate this. I'm not adding anything or reading into anything...

    Note that declaring reset in the reactive turn and not being immobilized or the target of a hacking or comms attack does nothing, just like declaring dodge in the active turn when no one is attacking you. You do not need to read into anything to understand this. There are simply no effects of either skill that would execute at resolution in both of these cases.
     
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  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    @Sabin76 & @Arkhos94 Thanks for answering that question, but I realized I made a mistake as I forgot the Berserk Attack is a modifier, not an effect. Even though it's an effect that tells us to use the table where the modifier is found, confusing.

    It feels like I'm in search of the Holy Grail trying to make all this make sense.

    I know the claim is there's some natural roll that happens outside the effects but i don't see it written anywhere. The rolls page says this, "Infinity uses 20-sided dice (commonly known as d20) to determine whether specific actions are successful." That's not a rule, it's a statement of fact.

    I've also noticed that skills use a label, 'No Roll" to indicate they don't require a roll. Thus without that label, we'd assume a roll of some kind is required. Again, those aren't rules in themselves, simply facts.

    If I'm sitting at step 7 having declared a Dodge ARO in response to a Berserk Attack from my opponent, what is taking place exactly? All the implications that Dodge requires a roll, still doesn't change the fact the only roll listed is a FTF roll. I don't see rules telling me to make any roll other than the FTF roll the Dodge skill tells me to make. I understand it's under the Dodge effects but I can't exactly wait until step 8 to use it.
    CC/BS Attack skills do have language about normal and FTF rolls. Although it's found in the CC/BS Attack resolution step. Dodge doesn't get this treatment.

    CC Attack Resolution
    CC Attack Roll
    After calculating the MODs, players make their Rolls using the relevant Attribute, usually CC. Simultaneous CC Attack Rolls can be made in any order.

    Normal Roll
    If the Skills declared by the target do not affect the outcome of the CC Attack, the attacker can make a Normal Roll (see Rolls).

    The attacker makes one roll for each point of Burst he assigned to a target.

    Face to Face Roll
    If the Skills declared by the target affect the outcome of the CC Attack (like declaring another CC Attack would, for example), then a Face to Face Roll is made (see Rolls, page XXX).​

    Declaring a Dodge ARO would mean I'm trying to evade the CC Attack. Meaning the roll is a FTF roll. Which I'm allowed to make because the Dodge rules tell me so. I really don't see how we can separate skill effects completely into step 8. Is there any chance there's an important distinction we're missing?

    Step 8 only applies effects of successful rolls. In other words, we follow effects like Dodge allowing me to make a FTF roll to evade attacks in step 7. But I only get to evade the attack in step 8 if the roll is successful. That make sense? So if an effects application is dependent on a successful roll, those get applied in step 8 while others get applied where they tell us to?
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    This I don't agree with. One of the effects of dodge is to be able to move in the reactive turn. I could declare a dodge simply because I want this effect. I would certainly argue that's a poor tactical decision, especially if the Berserker carries a DA weapon, but it's a decision nonetheless.

    My point about BS/CC Attack was that the effects bullets specifically do not call out a type of roll required. Neither does the movement effect bullet in dodge. You could argue that PH not being called out in the dodge skill outside of the F2F bullets is an oversight, but (just like BS/CC Attack) if you look outside the effects bullets, you will find what you are looking for.

    Now you've touched on something a bit deeper... effects that are applied before the "effect" step in the order resolution sequence. This is a problem with the rules (IMO), but it's not a problem specific to dodge.
     
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  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That feels like splitting hairs. I declare a Dodge ARO to do whatever I want, evading attacks is the base function and carries no negatives.
    CC/BS Attack skills don't need to call out the type of roll they are because it is determined and explained in the CC/BS Attack resolution rules I quoted. The skills point out the attribute you use. The resolution step tells us to roll against the relevant attribute.

    The Dodge skill doesn't have this deeper explanation with a resolution step. What the Dodge skill does have, is effects explaining what the roll is. So the Dodge skill functions without calling out PH in it's own bullet because it calls out PH as well as the type of roll in the same bullet.

    I know this has been a long thread, but the picture is starting to come into focus, unless there's some new revelation.

    Which brings me back to an earlier interpretation with different reasoning behind it. I declare DodgeARO vs a Berserk Attack, which turns the Dodge FTF roll to evade the attack into a Normal roll, This is a conflict within the rules (nothing sinister, just a mistake). Thankfully there is a ruling telling us Berserk wins this interaction.

    I'm content with this unless anyone wants to point out an error not already discussed.
     
  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Also : PH attribute is decribed as the attribute use for dodging in the attribute page and hyperdynamic is referring to PH

    That's not the way most people understand it but as long as you accept "berserk beat dodge" as the RAI, i can witht that

    PS : slight modification of your phrase the way I understand it, binging RAW and RAI together : Which I declare DodgeARO vs a Berserk Attack, which turns the Dodge FTFinto a Normal roll, The roll being normal, Dodge effect avoiding damage does not work (but the movement effect still work if the roll is a success)
     
  9. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    True, but that's stating a fact, rather than providing any rule to follow. The Dodge skill still only uses the PH attribute to make a FTF roll to evade attacks. As well as it's other effects.
    Yeah we disagree here. I think the Dodge skills effect to allow a FTF roll to evade the attack happens in step 7, That roll is also turned into a normal roll by Berserk in step 7. But when the successful effects of that roll are applied in step 8, to evade the attack, we have a conflict not resolved within the rules.

    But I do agree the move 2" still works because a successful Dodge can be interpreted to mean the basic roll was successful even if the attack isn't evaded (whether due to a conflict in the rules or ruling).
     
  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I think, perhaps, the problem is that you are reading that first bullet point as a descriptor (dodge's purpose, if you will), rather than an effect.

    You must read it as strictly an effect. The reason it "allows" you to make a FtF roll is because the rules (facts?) for FtF rolls require that your action do something to the other trooper. Dodge, does not. Without this language, dodge could never be a FtF roll because it doesn't do anything to the opposing trooper.

    Read this way, it's clear that the first set of bullets is giving you permission to make what would normally be a normal roll a face to face one. And, in doing so, evade the attacks that are coming in because that's what face to face rolls do (using your dice to negate opposing dice).

    That said, at least we can all agree on RAI and play with that.
     
  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    As a side note, I'd argue that the only reason Reset works within its skill box is because of the precedent set by dodge. Without the text below the skill about coordinated orders, there doesn't seem to be any text within the skill box that tells you HOW you might roll F2F with WIP (like dodge, reset does nothing to an opposing trooper, so the roll would naturally be a normal roll without anything to tell us otherwise)... just what would happen if you won such a roll.
     
  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I've come to the realization the term 'effects' for skills is almost meaningless. It's just a list of a skills rules and we follow their instructions as dictated. The term doesn't hold any real sway when it comes to the structure of the rules. We apply MODs in step 7 because we must do so before a roll. We apply the effects of successful Orders after that in step 8. Not all effects require a successful order to be applied. So there is no direct connection between those steps and the term 'effects' used by skills. There is no hard and fast rules to follow that apply to all skill effects.

    The OES actually says in the giant red box labelled Important, "If the Player declares a Skill and, when he applies its Effects, he realizes the Requirements are not met, then the Skill is considered null. However, the trooper who declared it still generates ARO" This shows we apply a skills effects well before step 8.
    The Dodge skill is a FTF roll. The rules tell us that. It is not a normal roll we're given permission to make as a FTF roll.

    The Dodge skill is an evade that negates your opponents attack against only you. It's written and designed as a FTF roll. Any description explaining why, is exactly that, a description. At no time is the Dodge skill a normal roll we're allowed to make as a FTF roll.

    We typically declare the Dodge ARO skill to make a FTF roll in response to attacks against us. We're not declaring Dodge ARO to turn some normal rol evade skill into a FTF one. That's not what the Dodge skill does. So Berserk just changes it into a Normal roll. There's nothing to suggest the effect to evade no longer functions after this change. If a successful FTF roll means we evade the attack, turning that roll into a normal roll would mean a successful normal roll evades the attack.

    I could argue the only requirement of Dodge is to have LoF, not for it to be a FTF roll. So turning that roll into a normal roll shouldn't have any other impact besides the type of roll required for success is now different.

    *I haven't looked very hard into Reset, should I?
     
  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Skills are not one roll or the other. This is completely unsupported by the rules.
    1. You declare a skill.
    2. Before you roll, you check to see if it will be normal or face to face (using the guidelines in the rolls section quoted above).
    3. Roll and see if you succeed.
    4. If you succeed, you apply the effects.*
      1. If some effects require other conditions not met, you ignore them.
    *some effects do not require a roll in some skills, like 6th sense. Other effects only make sense being applied earlier in the sequence.

    Again... reading an effect as a description.

    Not quite. You are right that we are not declaring a Dodge ARO to turn some "normal roll evade" into a F2F one. You declare Dodge to make someone shooting/stabbing you have to roll F2F with better odds than if you shot/stabbed back (say someone shooting at a gaki or preta/taigah out of range). In addition I am DEFINITELY declaring dodge to try and move my critters up the board. Both effects are useful, but they are separate.

    To say they are contingent on each other is like saying that the -3 MOD for camo only applies in the CAMO state (a common rookie mistake, I might add). Allowing you to be in the CAMO state and having a -3 MOD imposed on enemy models are separate effects. One is not contingent on another.

    You should, because that's correct.

    Also true. What you didn't mention here is that the "evade attacks" effect is tied to being a F2F roll. Like I said, that's the whole point of being a F2F roll. That's what they do (negate enemy successes). It's important to note that "evade" is not a key word in infinity. You "evade" because you won the F2F roll, not because it uses the word "evade".
     
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  14. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Active player: 1st skill move
    Reactive player: ARO dodge, moving 2” into cover
    Active player: 2nd skill shoot at dodging troop with HMG
    Result: Dodge is FtF vs BS Attack

    Active player: 1st skill move
    Reactive player: ARO dodge, moving 2” into cover
    Active player: 2nd skill shoot at dodging troop with Chain Rifle
    Result: Dodge is normal roll

    Active player: 1st skill move
    Reactive player: ARO dodge, moving 2” into cover
    Active player: 2nd skill move
    Result: Dodge is normal roll
     
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  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I never implied skills are one roll or another. I said the Dodge skill is a FTF roll, because that's what the skill is/does.
    • Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.
    • This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).
    Above is what the Dodge skill does. There are two more bullets further defining it.
    Then we have an additional effect to move 2", with two more bullets defining that as well.
    No, I'm reading an effect as a rule.
    It's tied to being a FTF roll right up until another skill changes that roll into a normal one. Then it's anybody's guess what happens from a RAW point of view.

    @toadchild
    Active player: 1st skill move
    Reactive player: ARO dodge, moving 2” into cover (FTF roll to evade attacks, successful Dodge allows 2" move.)
    Active player: 2nd skill shoot at dodging troop with HMG
    Result: Dodge is FtF vs BS Attack (according to Dodge rules)

    Active player: 1st skill move
    Reactive player: ARO dodge, moving 2” into cover (FTF roll to evade attacks, successful Dodge allows 2" move.)
    Active player: 2nd skill shoot at dodging troop with Chain Rifle
    Result: Dodge is normal roll (according to template and Dodge rules)

    Active player: 1st skill move
    Reactive player: ARO dodge, moving 2” into cover (FTF roll to evade attacks, successful Dodge allows 2" move.)
    Active player: 2nd skill move
    Result: Dodge is normal roll (according to what rules?)

    We get to declare Dodge ARO above only because of a FAQ. That's the first indication Dodge was written/intended as a FTF roll. The second being that the skill itself tells us it's a FTF roll.

    In your third example, what's allowing you to make a normal roll and execute the 2" move based on its success? The only roll you can make is a FTF roll to evade an attack according to the Dodge skill.
     
    #235 Ginrei, May 22, 2019
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  16. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Is this what allows me to make that normal roll? Under FTF roll rules in the red important box:

    For actions to be resolved with a Face to Face Roll, both troops must affect each other directly. If either action does not affect the outcome of the other, use Normal Rolls instead.
    So I do as Dodge instructs to make the FTF roll, and when nothing opposes it, I follow that rule?
     
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    What, if anything, changes in your mind if the text of Dodge were changed to the following:
    You keep saying that the effects of a skill are "rules", but the rules on how to make rolls are somehow not "rules". Not only are they rules, but they are rules at a more fundamental level than any one skill.

    It's not a guess. The RULES tell you that making a normal roll will be a success as long as you roll equal or under your attribute. And, although it's more buried than I'd like, the attribute is plainly PH.
     
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  18. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    No interaction between "move-move" from the active player and "dodge" from the reactive player. That's a textbook normal roll : "This roll is used when a troop is not facing off against an enemy, but instead must prove successful in an uncontested or passively contested Skill"

    Dodge is uncontested by move => normal roll

    Nope, we get to declare dodge as an ARO in @toadchild thrid case because the only requirement to declare dodge is to have LoF to the "attacker". FAQ only confirmed the interpretation that "attacker" was intended roughly as "opponent trooper"

    As @Sabin76 and pretty much everyone says : dodge 5th bullet point : "In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches.". Success is defined as the success of the rolls (see rolls definition, F2F roll definition and normal roll definition : it's in all three of them).
     
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  19. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    It’s a normal roll because there is no opposed roll by the opponent. This is core game terminology.

    If you pass your roll, you can move 2” as per dodge rules.
     
  20. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
    Warcor

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    I also find it very difficult to find objects when I do not listen to the people who have already found them.

    I have come to three conclusions.

    1. Everyone is in agreement that this interaction specifically, and the greater rules set in general, can be better written.
    2. Almost everyone is in agreement with how this SHOULD be played. You can call it anything you want: no one cares. It could be a metaphysical hunch, but the fact is as such: If you go to a tournament, you now know how it will be handled.
    3. This thread could probably have been locked some time ago.
     
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