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Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

Discussion in 'Rules' started by paraelix, May 10, 2019.

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  1. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I’m repeating what others have said.

    Only one of dodge’s clauses cares if the roll is FtF or not. That one is affected. The other only cares if the roll was passed or failed. Success and failure as concepts exist regardless of whether the roll is Normal or FtF.
     
  2. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    So you're saying Berserk Attack only works on effects that care if the roll is FTF? Where is that written and defined?

    Also, it would help if you said which effects you're referring to. I'd rather not have to assume.
     
  3. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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  4. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    So you can't answer my question then @toadchild . Thanks for playing.
     
  5. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    It’s more that if you refuse to learn, I’m under no obligation to teach you.
     
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  6. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    But isn’t willful misunderstanding the best misunderstanding?
     
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  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm the one still here asking questions and discussing all sides of the argument. I've shown I'm more than willing to learn. You vaguely answered one question that i didn't fully understand. Rather than answer a follow up question you repeated the same thing.

    Claiming that I refuse to learn after what you've done only tells me you're not the person I want to be discussing this with. Just as you're not obligated to teach... I'm not obligated to follow you down a blind alley.
     
  8. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I don't quite follow what you don't understand?

    1. Dodge allows the user to make a face to face roll to evade attack.
    ie. Winning a face to face with dodge means you take no damage.
    ergo, a dodge declaration is an exemption from the normal rules for face to face rolls.

    2. A successful dodge allows you to move, or when engaged in CC, to disengage.

    3. We know from the normal rules, a success of a normal roll is rolling under your attribute. A success in a face to face, is winning the face to face.

    4. Berserk turns face to face rolls into normal rolls.
    eg. a berserk declaration is an exemption from the normal rules for face to face rolls.

    While to be 100% it would be nice to have this interaction spelled out. I don't think its necessary because;

    A. Either both exemptions are ignored, and the rolls are both normal.
    B. You apply dodge, then Berserk, and the rolls are both normal.
    C. You apply dodge, and somehow assume it overrides Berserk. Its a face to face roll.
    D. You apply both, but assumes berserk overrides dodge and the rolls are both normal.

    Only C. results in a face to face, and requires an interaction not directed in the rules for dodge - to override or change another models skill.

    D. is the same as B, but again utilises an interaction hiterto unseen before.

    Finally, B. makes sense in the context of the rules because generally where rules counteract other rules, it is called out as doing so. Its also intuitive in how the two rules interact with face to face.

    Dodge allows the model to create a face to face despite not affecting the other model. This is an expansion of what can be allowed to create a face to face, rather than forcing the other model to do anything differently.
    Ie. This rule modifies how the general rules might apply, with no definitive result, only possible results.
    Eg. Dodge is not treated any differently than if the model had declared another skill which would normally create a face to face.

    Berserk changes what the other model can do. By removing the ability of either model to create a face to face.
    Ie. This is a directive rule, with a defined end result.
     
  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Yeah thats true. By in large a tidy up of terminology would go a long way.

    But at the same time, theres a few interactions that I would LOVE to be updated.

    1. Stealth. For goodness sake to be useful more to martial artists than hackers/heavy infantry.

    2. Jammers/isolate. Why this couldn't have been leveled like immobilised I don't know. It would have given so much flexibility to future profiles and equipment.
     
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    You've described a successful roll, not a successful dodge.
    You've missed one of the effects.
    • This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).
    Above is what a 'Successful Dodge' is. (the roll that must successfully be passed) Many skills refer to themselves like this. So to move 2", Berserk is turning that effect into a normal roll. So I ask again. How does Berserk turn that effect into a normal roll and not this one below?
    • Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.
     
    #190 Ginrei, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    No effect of dodge is change into a normal roll.

    The phrases "This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...)." or "Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks." are not change by the skill berserk, they are ignored because this is not a face to face roll and so they do not apply.

    The only thing missing in dodge is a phrase telling that PH is the relevant attribute to roll a dodge (no matter what kind of roll). Fortunaly the effect regarding face to face, all the information regarding modifiers to a dodge roll and the example implies it. So even if RAW doesn't write it clearly, there is no doubt at all that RAI says "PH is the attribute to roll a dodge".
     
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  12. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Ginrei that is seems strange/wrong, that a 'berserked' normal Attack can succeed, while a 'berserked' normal Dodge can not, but sadly the rule text is clear on this:
    So, even if you succeed your Dodge, you still have to make that ARM roll (or BTS or whatever, as I guess this just stands for 'roll regarding that damage type of the attacker's weapon'.).

    In other words:
    you simply can not dodge the hit* from a berserk attack,
    and (as I cannot remember any Berserker with a CC value of less than 14, )
    it is impossible to miss with a berserk attack.

    I do not like this, and I do not know if this interaction with Dodge is intended, but RAW it is quite clear.

    (*Yeah, you can still move, but you cannot avoid the hit.)
     
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  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Is it clear that is the outcome? I agree with you that Berserk makes it clear passing your normal roll forces the target to make a save etc.
    However, I don't agree there are any rules to suggest that effect of Berserk overrides Dodge's ability to evade attacks. Following Berserks rules, yes the Dodging player takes a hit and possible dmg. But following Dodges rules, the player evades attacks and dmg.

    What we have is a case of the immovable object vs the unstoppable force. It's a conflict in the rules.

    Claiming the 2" move is allowed seems only to serve as a compromise to the above situation.
    That's your assumption, but it's by no means a fact. And under your assumption, does the Dodging trooper get to move 2"?
     
  14. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Nope, first part is basic RAW : if an effect says "make face to face roll to do X" and there is no face to face roll then there is no effect.
    To put it simply : if you remove the cause, the consequence disapear.


    Moving 2" with dodge is defined by this effect that has been quoted and explained plenty already :
    "In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches."
    To follow the effect logic backward :
    1) to move you need a sucessful dodge => that's RAW (see underlined part)
    2) a sucessful dodge is defined by RAW as success of its roll (if there is a roll of course)=> that's RAW (see rolls definition "Infinity uses 20-sided dice (commonly known as d20) to determine whether specific actions are successful" http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Rolls)
    3) Success of a roll is defined here http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Normal_Rolls and here http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Face_to_Face_Rolls (I already did a detailled explaination a few pages back) => that's RAW, I'm available if you want to get into more detail on this one

    Step 1 doesn't mention roll => No influence of berserk here
    Step 2 is the definition for all kinds of roll => no influence of berserk here either
    Step 3 can work with both kinds. => only influence of berserk is : you need to read this http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Normal_Rolls instead of this http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Face_to_Face_Rolls to know what a sucess of a roll mean

    So yep, as a fact, as defined by RAW, moving 2" following a dodge is not dependant of the kind of roll you do to dodge. Only of said roll success or failure.




    Last part of my post is RAI, it's true. You can call that assumption if you want. But unless you want to argue PH is not the relevant attribute for dodge, what's the point ? Do you want to discuss it ?
     
    #194 Arkhos94, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It actually tracks well with the purpose of Berserk, making sure the hit goes through and accepting any consequences.
     
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  16. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Weird how Berserk only talks about itself in the context of two players attacking each other then. If it was supposed to override Dodge, shouldn't that have been explained?
    I've argued how Berserk turns all effects into Normal rolls. I also accept that there's a case for Berserk not turning any effects into Normal rolls.

    But i refuse to believe a 'Successful Dodge' means something other than what's written. The Dodge rule is not in any way written to handle normal rolls. Why else do you think template weapons have extra rules to allow Dodging them? They have them because they don't provoke a FTF roll. So to be able to Dodge them, we need rules for Dodging on a Normal roll. Then there's Berserk, which doesn't provoke a FTF roll either, yet it has no such rules to handle Dodge.
    I'm with you until #2. "Defined by success of its roll" I agree this far. But after that you move forward based on ANY successful roll, instead of ITS roll. The rule doesn't say based on ANY successful roll. It's a successful Dodge. I'm not going to quote the rule again, but the rules tell us very explicitly what a Dodge is, and it's a FTF roll.

    So when Berserk forces us to make a Normal roll either it completely invalidates ALL effects of Dodge, or it changes ALL effects of Dodge into Normal rolls. There simply is no interpretation for some effects to work and others not to work.
     
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the FAQ implicitly opens up this possibility:

    Q: Can you declare a Dodge ARO even if the Order generating that reaction does not include an Attack?
    A: Yes.

    This means it is entirely possible to dodge on normal rolls without the "special exceptions" for templates. You obviously won't be avoiding attacks if there are none, but in the reactive you still get to move 2" if you roll successfully (normal roll on PH).

    Consider this situation:
    Trooper moves, ARO dodge, trooper moves a second time...
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    In case it wasn't mentioned earlier in the thread, that is the intention.
     
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  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't open up this possibility, "There simply is no interpretation for some effects to work and others not to work."

    The FAQ only allows declaring a Dodge ARO when no attack is involved. The scope of that FAQ is clear, when someone declares an order that doesn't involve an attack... A Dodge ARO is allowed to be declared in response. Do not read any more into it than that please.

    It does not mean you can dodge templates without it's special rules. It means if the second order declared by the trooper is an attack, the Dodge ARO you are now allowed to declare, will function as normal. Meaning it will evade BS attacks and templates.

    In your example, "Trooper moves, ARO dodge, trooper moves a second time..." allowing the move 2" is just popular opinion flexing its muscles. The assumption is being made that this Dodge ARO, a declaration allowed to be made by the FAQ in response to no attack, will now function as a Normal roll. And when looking at the Dodge effects, the only relevant effect to use is 2" of movement. I can guess at the psychology behind the community's decision but it doesn't change the facts I've presented.
     
  20. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I see it quite the other way round:

    In active as well as vs templates, you manage to avoid all attacks if you succeed in your non-F2F Dodge roll.

    And as Berserker seems to be the only exception, it should be stated in the rules for Berserker.
     
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