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Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

Discussion in 'Rules' started by paraelix, May 10, 2019.

  1. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    I-Kohl, like Martial arts, uses a CC Chart. In the "reading CC Charts" rules, it explains that Opponent Mods are only applied to FtF rolls.

    Berserk, when used, changes the CC actions from being FtF to being unopposed Normal rolls. When Berserk is used by Model A against Model B, Model B's CC skills imposing Opponent Mods are ignored because it is no longer a FtF roll.

    However, the examples provided under I-Kohl list an example of I-Kohl vs a Berserking Galwegian which state that the Galwegian is still affected.

    Can the please receive clarification/FAQ on this? I-Kohl uses a CC Chart so should be ignored when using Berserk. Alternately, if I-Kohl should work vs Berserk as in the example, the rule should be amended so that it no longer uses a CC Chart (removing the Rules contradiction).

    @ijw @HellLois @Koni
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is why the game shouldn't rely on examples, and instead should have rules text that makes sense.
     
  3. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Corvus Belli's new FAQ policy (to provide 3-monthly FAQ.s) is welcome of course, but it's a time-consuming way of providing exhaustive answers when so many issues only need a line or two, like this. I still think the best way to do that would be a solution like Oracle, that Wizards of the Coast provide for Magic: the Gathering, but the thread was intended to provoke other suggestions too.
     
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  4. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

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    Please change I-Kohl to Dodge Lvl2 and smoke to Dodge LX to streamline rules
     
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  5. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I think it's worth pointing out that the Old Version of I-Khol was this:
    i-Kohl: i-Kohl is a brand of make-up and personal beauty products developed by the Haqqislamite cosmetic industry (Kohl was the make-up used in Ancient Egypt). A more powerful and less subtle military application for it was quickly found. Usually the i-Kohl brand name is used to refer to all these kinds of products, military or not, artificial or natural, and of human or alien origin.

    Special Skill based on emission of a range of designed pheromones and other powerful biochemical substances which saturate the sensory receptors of adversaries, human or not, who must be in base contact with the user. The i-Kohl applies a negative Modifier to the CC Attribute of opponents in CC combat with its user. The i-Kohl has no effect on figures with the STR Attribute. This is an automatic Special Skill and it does not require the spending of any Orders or the making of any rolls to use it. There are three levels of i-Kohl:

    • Level 1: When its bearer is engaged in CC, the i-Kohl provides a –3 Modifier to the CC of all those who are fighting against him.

    • Level 2: Works exactly the same as Level 1, but applies a –6 Modifier to the CC attribute.

    • Level 3: Exactly the same as Level 1, but applies a –9 Modifier to CC.

    Example: Azra, an Odalisque with i-Kohl L3, is engaged in CC combat with a Shaolin Warrior-Monk who, despite his strict training, cannot avoid being influenced by the charms of the beautiful Odalisque. The Warrior-Monk can use his Martial Arts Level 3 to hit first, but with a –9 Modifier to his CC.

    Example: The lovely Azra, with her natural magnetism, is now in base to base contact with a wild and hairy 45th Highlander. However the unstoppable fury of the Caledonian doesn’t make him immune to the spell of Azra’s i-Kohl. The 45th can use his Berserk Special Skill (CC +9) but it will be nullified by the I-Kohl L3 (CC -9)

    Example: A Ninja in his active turn, attracted to the beautiful Azra, declares Move + CC against her. If Azra reacts by Shooting, she cannot use the i-Kohl in the Face to Face Roll, because they are not in base contact. However, if she reacts by declaring a CC action, then she can apply the Modifier.​

    Disclaimer: This is copy/paste from the unofficial re-edit.
     
  6. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    There are unfortunately several places in the rules that refer to FtF rolls or the opponent’s attacks that don’t actually care if the roll is FtF or if the opponent is even attacking at all. (Dodge being one of the first examples to come to mind). This is a problem.

    Berserk breaks some core mechanics of Infinity and does not give enough guidance on how to play it. I just reread that rule, and its four bullet points are very redundant and repetitive. They over-explain the fact that you can only choose one line off the chart, but don’t go into any detail about how to resolve things like FtF mods once you’ve made the rolls Normal.
     
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Bezerk doesnt take Martial arts mods, (No Face to face)
    It does however take Ikhol Mods (Per the Examples)
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, the example's wrong.
     
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  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    The rules text indicates it affects CC rolls. Berserk is a CC roll, so it’s affected. Simple.
     
  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So Martial Arts Lv3 -3 to opponent also works against Berserk ?

    • Each Level of Martial Arts gives a series of specific MODs and advantages to CC, as shown in the Martial Arts Chart.
     
    #10 eciu, May 10, 2019
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/I-Kohl

    • As shown in the i-Kohl Chart, each Level of this CC Special Skill provides a negative MOD to the opponent in CC, no matter if the owner of i-Kohl declares CC Attack, Dodge or Engage.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/CC_Special_Skills

    • Opponent MOD: A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll.
    There's no bullet point in I-Kohl overriding that to say that the mod also applies for normal rolls.

    Alternatively, does Martial Arts L3's negative opponent mod also affect Berserking models?
     
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  12. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    The specific text of i-Kohl indicates it affects CC rolls, and the examples show the effects versus Berserk. MA doesn’t make any mention of FtF either, so why wouldn’t the Lvl3 MOD affect it? It’d still be a pair of normal rolls regardless.
     
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  13. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    Because the actual rule for how to read a CC skill table says that the Opponent Mod only affects FtF rolls.
     
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  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    If memory serves me well, I think that the example was made specifically to indicate and explain that the berserk is affected by I-kohl regardless of the CC chart.

    Criticism of it been confusing are of course understandable.
     
  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Then in this case, I’d go with the idea that the specific call out in i-Kohl would trump/override/what have you would take precedence over the general rule. General says one thing, specific rules explicitly lays out something different, then that something different holds sway.
     
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I think that's reasonable, but I as @psychoticstorm says above, it probably could have been a little more explicit so that people didn't think there was an error. For example, the part where it says that this skill can be used even if the bearer is not executing the CC Attack skill - this is a big exception to the normal CC Special Skills rules, but is called out very clearly.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is a fundamental problem with the way the Infinity rules are structured - because that exception isn't called out in the text of the rule, it instead looks like the person who wrote the example didn't understand the rules for CC skills in general. At this point I honestly find your explanation very unlikely.
     
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  18. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    That was the intent, to have the specific example showing how it steps outside of the normal CC table. General rule, but a specific rule making that exception.
     
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  19. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    You’re quite right, a touch more clarity wouldn’t hurt.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Then why didn't it call it out as a specific exception like the ability to use it with Engage?