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Becoming a WAAC player.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic English' started by Abd Al-Azrad, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Yah we just call them cheaters lol =p.
    Depending on the goal of local tournament here punishment can be as simple as
    correction, warning, match loss, or as high as expulsion.

    Yah they need to re-correct that engage nonsense.
    I used the fireball example (could have also used throws I guess) because you will definitely find a type of player (mostly new but not always) who will get salty if you spam strategies they are weak to.
    Some cool essays have even been made on that subject.
    http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

    I was trying to determine if a waac player is the kind of guy who will spam fireballs?
    Show up to game of Magic with a "netdeck"?
    will do something very dastardly like declare zone of control ARO's or use coherency checks for the chance to get some unrelated measurements?
    I bet that last one made a few people here bristle...
    or if a waak player is just a mixture of poor sportsmanship and players prone to use "fuzzy maths" and "tactical bumping".


    I have always like the name "Spike" for that sort of player. Its what the MTG design team called them at one time anyway.

    They are by no means mutually exclusive, but I have never seen a tournament level game where they did not clash to some extent.
    There are plenty of magic the gathering communities that will flat out ban or at the very least look down on netdecking.

    I don't know about that.
    Games like Magic the Gathering actually make cards that target the different types of players, furthermore they even have alternative game modes that straight out make it hard to be a spike, like Commander for example.

    It's also kind of worked for Star Wars X-wing. Something of a mantra called Flying Casual.
    Player One: I am not making it to day two, you want to just fly casual for this match?
    Player Two: Sorry man but I still have a chance so I am going all out.
     
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  2. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    And what I'm saying is we could spend less time trying to pick a name to call people we dont like and more time trying to reach out to the people we dont like and try to encourage them to be less off putting. You don't want that responsibility, it's your right to walk away from it.

    But calling people 'fun sponge douchebag' helps absolutely nothing. You'll find plenty of people online to agree with you, but I won't be one of them.
     
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  3. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting topic. Let me explain my feelings about this issue:

    Because of my job, I have to play a lot of chess. I really fear playing chess, because it is all about skill. In a game of chess, you are putting your work to the test. I am always very disappointed with myself when I lose. To the point where I try to avoid playing.

    I thought I could play dice based war games to relax a bit from chess, but that has never worked out so well.

    When I played Warhammer Fantasy Battle, I sometimes had similar feelings as with chess, and now I do with Infinity.
    I have noticed that indeed, in Infinity there is a lot of luck involved. If you do not make a dice roll, even though the odds were in your favour, you may have to repeat the action, leaving you with less orders. The game I played yesterday could have been a lot different. if my opponent had a single different result on a die roll. I should not take this game so seriously.

    On the other hand, there is a lot of skill involved. You need to be aware of all the options you and your opponent have. You need to come up with good plans. You need to micromanage the placing of your models, etc.

    So for players of all kinds of games and sport, it is skill that they want to test, and failing the test is always disappointing. They are upset, they feel bad, they want to stop playing. Games evolve around tension. They are about who is going to feel bad after the game. Without this tension, the game would be boring. With the tension, people like me feel stressed out and they don't enjoy themselves.

    It is strange. I am philosophically opposed to the idea of competition, but I really like war games. I am living a contradiction.

    Probably the weirdest thing about this is that when I win in a war game, I often feel that it was because my opponent wasn't that strong. If I lose, I feel bad because I failed.

    Now that I got 20x20, I feel a bit more relaxed. Even if I lose, I can be happy when I feel that my scenario works out well. My opponent is happy, because he wins, I can feel satisfaction in having created a good scenario. I still win games, of course.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    @locksmith : I've been the guy who got called out by another player to say that my army was not fun to play against. It was late 3e 40k/very early 4e, and I was running 10 Crisis suits, 2 Broadsides, and 24 firewarriors. The store's terrain was a bunch of 'forests' that were only about 4" wide, so my Crisis suits could jump over the forest, shoot the crap out of whatever, and then jump back out of LOS (exactly how the Crisis suits were described as operating in fluff). I would typically not lose a single model until Turn 3, but I usually lost in Turn 4 (couldn't kill enough guys in those 3 turns before CC happened).

    That was a really painful conversation, for both of us.

    I'd ordered a bunch of stuff from Forgeworld about the time of that conversation, including Imperial Armor 3: Taros Campaign. With the 4e rules changing the rapid fire rules (allowing you to move and shoot twice within 12"), I saw "Fish of Fury" (though I didn't call it that): 4 Devilfish full of Firewarriors, supported with two Hammerheads and a squad of Broadsides. All the Devilfish had Smart Missile Systems, so I had 7 shots on the move plus the 24 shots from the fire warriors from each squad of Troops alone.

    You should have seen the look on that Khorne player's face (same guy who had that talk with me, actually) when he was paired with me. First it was concern, until I told him, "Nah, man, I'm running something different today." Then the look on his face when the entire Tau army advanced towards him and unassed the transports.... "WTF?!?" Followed by ZOMG! when all the shooting went in. Sadly for me, he made far too many invuln saves and was able to assault me, which went about as you could expect.
     
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  5. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    You could have argued back that this is not your fault, it is GWs. Why isn't your list fun for the other player? Because he cannot destroy it? Does he restrict himself deliberately as well when list building? What exactly does he expect you to do?

    Players don't have the responsibility to restrict themselves when the game designers are unable or unwilling to balance the game. I had this conversation many times. It is very hard to figure out what is an acceptable list and what is a "cheesy" list. The game designers should figure that out, that is what they paid for. Different players have different standards. What is too cheesy for me might just be cheesy enough for you.

    Btw. that ongoing discussion was one of the reasons I left GW games. I didn't even have the cheesy lists.
     
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  6. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    I would vote it's only the last of those honestly. The ZoC thing I think is a little bit of a creative way to get around no premeasuring. Warmachine players used to do something similar with caster radius all the time.

    Nice sirlin shout out by the way, that guy is great and Yomi is one of the most under-appreciated games ever.
     
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  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's the thing.

    I was running what I thought was a rather fluffy army, and usually losing with it. The eventual win didn't make the pain of 2-3 turns of few to no casualties caused to my army 'fun' in the opinion of the rest of the community.

    The guy who told me that army wasn't fun to play against had a gorgeous Khorne Berserkers army. His aspiring champs were all in the pre-heresy blue-and-white colors. He didn't take any vehicles, it was all footslogging berserkers and demons.
     
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  8. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    See, there is no way of ever resolving this. The Khorne player may be someone who plays for the sake of the optics, or maybe for the background. You sound like someone who is out to compete without wanting to win at all costs. We all have different reasons for playing games and different levels of competitiveness. It is very hard to communicate what exactly you want and what you expect from other players. With the rules sets of GW games, it is almost impossible to find common terms.

    I never had such problems with Infinity. Players are able to hold a good game even if their list is not maxxed out against a competitive player. Sure, the game is not perfect and there are some lists considered "cheesy", but I have yet to come across someone playing them against me to the point i find it annoying. With Infinity, no one needs to cut through the cheese with endless discussions of what should be allowed in a tournament list like we used to do with WHFB back in the day in Berlin.
     
  9. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    Well said.

    I think the term 'WAAC' actually covers a broad range of people and regrettable practices in different situations. What they have in common as you've perfectly described is doing whatever they're doing with disregard for, or precisely at the expense of, their opponent.

    Here's a story about really good player, an excellent competitor, a skillful person, and whose practice has particularly influenced my attitude to games. It's a guy called Cameron, who taught me to play the Cardfight! Vanguard (the trading card game) over several weeks of lunchtime games in which I was pleased to beat him more and more often.

    Still, as the games got tighter, beating him consistently seemed to somehow stay just out of reach and it dawned on me that perhaps I hadn't been properly beating him in those games, because maybe he'd been holding back just enough that the games stayed interesting for me.

    I didn't say anything for several more weeks until I finally won a really good match and put him on the spot, saying I was on to his subterfuge. He laughed and agreed it was indeed the first time he'd held nothing back and had to play as hard as he could to beat me; so I'd won fair and square. How good do you have to be to turn it on and off to suit the competitive or social situation you're in?

    Cam's the archetype of what I think of as a really good player - someone who's so good at a game that they don't have to prove it; so they can stand outside their own feelings about winning and losing to watch what's happening for the other player - and act appropriately. I'd like to be that good at Infinity some day.

    ... at life too, come to think of it. :smile:
     
    #49 Wolf, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  10. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    Wait, there’s a job where you have to play a lot of chess? :grin: No-one told me about this!
     
    #50 Wolf, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think there is a vast gap between players that play to win and will hold nothing in order to win and "at all cost" players.

    At all cost indicates that they will, bend, break, conveniently ignore the rules and other stuff that can or cannot be borderline or outright cheating, a player that plays to win simply plays as best as he can to win.

    The merging of the meaning happened because in previous incarnations (I do not know about the latest) GW game design (the market leader) was based on players self moderating in order to have a balanced game, an antiquated view in our modern gaming, players that exploited in full unbalanced army lists were labelled WAAC the same label players who exploited really badly written rules were and the meaning merged to encompass both players who used the tools given to them to the full extend and the players who blended the rules to win.

    I think players who use the tools given to them at the maximum in order to win are not WAAC players they are simply players that play to win, if the tools are overpowered or broken it is not their fault its the companies fault and they must fix them.
     
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  12. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    I'm pleasantly surprised to read such a forthright opinion, and think it interesting coming from you, and its implications for Corvus Belli...

    I think that in any game where a player builds a list around a particular rules loophole or similar exploit, but who, before the game is started draws their opponents' attention to their list and explains how they'll use the exploit - they cannot be called a WAAC player!

    Especially if they offer you their army to try the exploit for yourself, like "Hey, I've built this really disgusting exploit list - wanna try it out against me?" :grin:
     
    #52 Wolf, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    A good example is the avatar/ speculo "exploit" used at the end of the 2nd edition, it has been identified and fixed in the third edition.
     
  14. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    I’m interested to hear about it, but more to know if it’s fair to say that the team do pay attention to the exploits that turn up and that, as a general principle, they do actively want to fix the loopholes or grey areas?
     
  15. yojamesbo

    yojamesbo purchaser of car seats

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    I don't really care if you play to win, so long as (1) you don't cheat, and (2) you're not a jerk. Definitely encountered a player or two at tournaments who I did not enjoy my games with because they were just less than friendly. I don't know if that was because they were overly focused on winning, or if it was just the curse of poor social skills that dogs the gaming community. Don't much care either, because at the end of the day I'd rather not play against them again; I didn't drive four hours to deal with your attitude.

    In organized play, I'll play to win (unless I'm already far enough behind that it doesn't matter--usually the case for most people after a couple of rounds--and then I just play to have fun). In casual play, I'm there to have an enjoyable evening and will usually field less competitive, more fluffy or experimental builds. And drink beer.

    My local meta is very chill despite having a mix of casual players, skilled players, and people like me that fall in between depending on how their day at work went.

    At the end of the day it's just a game. I understand wanting to play it well, but if you're finding yourself overly invested in the outcome, maybe you should step back and get some perspective.
     
    #55 yojamesbo, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  16. MisterSwiss

    MisterSwiss New Member

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    So long as both sides have some good shots, I'm alright with losing. I like keeping things tense and having dice rolls matter.

    I like to win, but hey, who doesn't?



    It's when one side or the other gets swept out by either bad positioning or a string of crits that I don't have fun in infinity. It's not a lot of fun to not be able to do anything to stop the opponent as they sweep you off the table.
     
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  17. Sanjuro

    Sanjuro Active Member

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    I used to be heavily into WoW and it troubled me that things were coming up that I didn't like about myself. I found an article about addiction from a buddhist's perspective which rang some bells for me http://www.homeoint.org/morrell/buddhism/addict.htm and think this is the same one and maybe it's useful for you too. That took me years to get though it's quicker if there's someone nearby for a social game!
     
  18. DrunkCorsair

    DrunkCorsair Well-Known Member

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    But thats sportsmanship which most are lacking.
    Its more you get that kicked in your theet during the game.

    Even in a beer and pretzles game i play to win and i expect that from my opponent.
    If you try to loose by intent where is the fun in that for the opponent?

    My personal experience showed that most people i would label under WAAC player are those that lack sportsmanship and are mostly not the most pleasnt people to play with or even just dicks when not playing, like those stomping a newbie in their first game with their fully tuned turney list and then running around jodeling how the newbie sucked in the whole nerdstore.
     
  19. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    Well, exactly that sort of sportsmanship can be cultivated in a situation that’s highly competitive - if you have the right people.

    To continue that story of Cardfight! Vanguard, I was 2IC at a game shop at the time, and was so impressed with Cam’ that we created a club with him as President, and made myself Club Captain (so it was a 2 man club initially!)

    He’s pretty shy, but I’m not, so I went around poaching kids from Magic: the Gathering and Pokemon groups there and at the other shop in town
    “You know that cool kid - he’s joined our CFV club now”
    “Can anyone come? Well, Vanguard’s pretty hard to be honest; it’s really for older kids, but ... maybe you’re smart enough? You do seem more grown up than than the others...” (I was f—--ing shameless!)

    And in due course, we had about a dozen players, mostly mid-teens but a few in their twenties. And we created a team, and that - the thing I described about the spike list, was one of the team exercises they came up with themselves.

    You built the strongest, nastiest deck you could, then gave it to your opponent to beat you up with. We started a card library from mine and Cameron’s and some key donations from the shop so we could build Tier 1 club decks.

    Then I got creative and rang up the card shop in the town I’d use to live, and arranged a challenge match; hired a minibus; got parents’ permission and we started running match days both home and away. From there it picked up speed, because we were having more fun than the Yu-gi-oh and MTG crowd.

    So we made it more exclusive still, choosing a team name that was the shop owner’s favourite comic character. I paid for badges that said ‘Wolverines A Team’ with a logo one of the girls came up with - only the A Team could wear them. But we had signature deck boxes made with “Vanguard National Championships Team” for anyone that game to the event.

    It was the gang to be in and, and - because there
    was a tragic history at the shop (broadly around bullying and for another tale) I had a platform for pushing fair play and courtesy. We never talked about it in the club at large, but often in private, and everyone knew what we were doing.

    I told them “You have to be so courteous in your games that your oppoenents wont remember if they won or lost - only that they had a good game! And they totally got into with each other, so of course it was this positive upward spiral where they were helping one another get better.

    I remember they’d worked out a system of grading their games from casual - with takebacks and hints, to full-on, no-holds barred playing for ante for rare cards from their folders (which didn’t matter of course, because they were all sharing their best cards to build stronger decks).

    One of their guys won the National Champs that first year, Cameron placed well; the club continues to this day at that shop and last I heard he was still coaching them and bringing in new players with his skillful means.

    Writing this makes me so proud of them again, and makes me realize how much I miss them and the store and a team that were the champions of sportsmanship long before they won any prizes.

    I hope you don’t mind the long story. :-)
     
    #59 Wolf, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  20. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    Just being able to crush an opponent is certainly not fun. It leaves the stale feeling that something is wrong. Either the scenario is unbalanced, or the opponent's army list is heavily flawed or luck has too much influence on the game. Or, of course, the opponent does not know what he/she is doing. Not an enjoyable win. People like to work for good results, they don't want them handed to them.
     
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