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Becoming a WAAC player.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic English' started by Abd Al-Azrad, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

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    I played against that army (farsight enclaves) almost to the letter with a Khorne Berserker horde on a table with standard issue 5 smallish terrain pieces fantasy board. 4th ed

    Can confirm, not very fun.

    I definitely get more competitive playing Infinity than I do playing other games but I don't think I get WAAC (@Solar ? Being the most competent local opposition you'd know best) more due to the nature and skill in the game or the nature of the competition when comparing it to other games I do think it's more of a finely tuned and responsive sports car rather than the sluggish spongy beer and pretzels of 40K or the stately build up, maneuver and placement of Dystopian Wars for example. People do tend to get more arsey playing infinity than I've noticed in other games, especially at competitive play.
     
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  2. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I think at least part of it comes from Infinity because a more unforgiving, lethal and "gotcha" kind of game. When the difference between being seen by a sniper or not is death for the trooper in question, and you only have a dozen of them, and you can lose them from carelessness in your own turn, line of sight is a big deal, range is a big deal, tiny changes in facing and position are a big deal, and the game rewards maximising your situational benefits and minimising your opponent's. That leads to a tense game experience, and tension breeds argumentativeness and such on occasion.

    Nobody really gives a shit about which way a Space Marine is looking, or who can see them, so it feels less intense in those games. The WAAC cost in other games is often frontloaded into list building however, which is less of a thing in Infinity, and that often results in a one-sided game from the get go, thus a negative play experience. I expect my opponent in Infinity to play to win, and the game allows them to do that and also be fun. People do get competitive, which is fine, but also sometimes salty as it is an inherently risky and deadly game which can ruin you if you get a couple of key things go wrong. I think Infinity promotes competitiveness in a good way (using tactics and skill, but with much less list cheese) and that saltiness and being argumentative is just a thing that comes of it being a relatively high stress game. But that's fine, part of the reason why it's so good is because it's a relatively high stress game.

    TL; DR, Infinity allows fun competitive play more than most games, but can be a stressful game to experience, hence it saltiness.
     
  3. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I agree with this, but I still believe we as players need to police ourselves not be salty when dealing with others.

    Over here, slamming your fist on the table, cursing at your mini or making a pissed off face is acceptable, but that's only because most Brazilians wear their emotions on their sleeves, so after being angry like that one is usually laughing later. If someone is dour or angry the whole match, it becomes annoying for both parties (I've had that happen, it's not cool)

    All in all, I think Infinity is the most competitive tabletop game on the market right now, and so it is expected that people come to the table with all they've got, but I prefer the whole UFC thing where it doesn't matter if you're bloodied, battered and with a split eyebrow by the end of the match, you hug it out like a gentleman then go train in the other dude's gym to become better.
     
    #23 DaRedOne, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Making sure that you're own behaviour, as a part of the community in games and out, is positive and doesn't make the game un-enjoyable is absolutely something that everyone should be responsible for. This is a very social hobby, to play the game, you need someone else in front of you. That's one of the best things about it, absolutely. But it also opens the game to a degree of tension, and infinity exacerbates that tension by design in order to make for an exciting and competitive experience. So it's something you potentially have to watch out even more for.

    But absolutely, a good mindset is important, I agree. I don't think that there's much that can be done about it within the game itself, and I often think when a game tries to it's counterproductive (War Machine infamously had "play like you've got a pair" as it's first rule, and even outside that being vaguely sexist, it also didn't seem to make any difference as I have rarely encountered a more whingy group of argumentative gamers outside of our local War Machine scene when it was at its peak. Seriously, according to them, nobody ever won a game of War Machine through any skill, it was also match-up/scenario/diced/felt ill that day/I'm brand new to this faction/never played that faction/etc etc etc). But I will say that Infinity's community seems pretty good to me in general in terms of sportsmanship, and I think that if we just generally continue to value sportsmanship as a whole thing, then we should be fine.

    We can all probably be more sporting, and remember times when we wish we had been. Stay positive, remember that losing is not the end of the world and is more often an opportunity to learn, keep an open mind, play the best you can and you'll find the hobby to be more enjoyable. If you feel like winning is the only thing that adds spice to it for you, taking a step back for a while and doing some more hobby stuff (converting, painting, experimenting with other factions and troops you don't usually use etc) is often a good idea :)
     
  5. Zakalwe

    Zakalwe Bomber Harris, Do It Again!

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    I play WAAC only a few times a year, specifically at tournaments. Even then I know I've stepped on people's toes (running 20 order lists into someone with a fairly casual 10 order Limited Insertion one and just burying them under dice, that kind of thing). If you're worried about getting too WAAC, I suggest asking someone else to write your lists for you. Lists are really the place where people get a bit competitive by trying to maximise efficiency, and if you have someone help you come up with something that's fairly casual running units that aren't considered optimised it doesn't matter if you are in the mood to win, because your list will stop the worst aspects of that coming out simply by curbing your ability to stomp your opponent as hard as you might otherwise.
     
  6. leigen_zero

    leigen_zero Morat Pacifist

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    I dunno, I don't think taking min-maxed lists is particularly a trait of the WAAC gamer, especially in competitive situations (heck, I would expect it in competitive situations).

    I think WAAC is more an attitude that the player has than what they bring to the table, like I've played opponents who are absolutely punishingly brutal on the table, but they are great sportsmen and the games were enjoyable, even if I got absolute murdered in the process.

    The WAAC gamer does not care for the wellbeing of his opponent, his lists are not necessarily min-maxed or efficient, they are designed to exploit some quirky RAW interaction or loophole that most gamers dismiss or gloss over when playing RAI, as the regular gamer expects the ruleset to be imperfect and thus some interpretation is significantly better for the health of the game. The WAAC gamer expects you to cut him slack if he messes up, but will call you out on the slightest mistake of your own, or will ask for take-backs but deny them to the opponent. The WAAC gamer will take a full knight maniple against the new guy who's barely base-coated his space marine starter box, and relish the inevitable victory as though he is winning the grandest of tournaments, including much verbal abuse and derision of his opponent. If they thinks they can get away with hidden deployment shenanigans, or forgetting which model is under which token, then they will.

    The WAAC may be a competitive player, or he may be a strictly casual player, it the mindset that sets him apart from other gamers, even those that are 'sore losers', more than the lists he plays or whether he 'plays for the win'

    *I can't think of a good example right now, but there have been numerous over the years
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very much this.

    Story time.

    I was playing flames of war at least 10 years ago, my Germans versus a gorgeously-painted American Airborne list (dude had painted divisional patches on their sleeves with the 'puking buzzard' of the 101st!). Accidentally bounced a die off of a stand once (I liked to roll shots close to the models I was shooting at), immediately apologized for it, and made sure it didn't happen again. Really hard-fought game where I lost, I was just flat out-played (best kind of loss, IMO). But like after every game I play, regardless of game or victory, I asked my opponent what I did wrong.

    He told the the first thing I did wrong was play him.

    I haven't played against that man since. I'll talk about games with him, I'll drink beers with him. I will not play a game against him.

    Another guy, about the same time, was playing WarmaHordes. He also usually outplayed me, but he was fun to play against. He'd crack jokes in the middle of the game, tell a less-experienced player 'hey, you don't want to do that because ___," and he'd tell you what he think you did wrong at the end of the game (even in a tournament, if you had time before the next round). I think he is the origin of the joke about the Junior Warcaster's 'mini-feat': dies horribly once per game.
     
  8. DrunkCorsair

    DrunkCorsair Well-Known Member

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    Worst WAAC Player i encounterd was like 15 years ago at a Warhammer Tourney.
    If you know the old citadel miniatures remember the old big Khorne Deamon made from white metal, one player positoined one at the side at the board and his opponent tipped it over. From distance it looked like an accident but the look in the eyes it was pure intention so player one couldnt use it in the tourney anymore.
    Not my game i was there pure as a viewer and army caddy for a friend.

    I think the best way to not go that route is an active social life. Get friends, get into clubs not neccesary wargaming just socialise the way you like.

    Dont be "that" guy.
     
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  9. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    From what you have described, I don't think you're becoming a WAAC player as much as you are just being competitive. I'm of the opinion that as long as you aren't impacting the ability of other players to have fun, and it sounds like you aren't, you can feel however you want. I had a loss this week that I was still angry about two days later because it originated from a mistake I made, coupled with some questionable outcomes. Ultimately, step away if you aren't having fun with the game, but don't beat yourself up over feeling angry when you lose. That's just part of playing a game that you care about.

    I actually wish people would view Infinity through a more competition-oriented lens for the most part. The community is great and I get that the cooperation is a selling point, but we could still have those positives while tightening up some things for the more competitive players.
     
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  10. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    So what exactly is the difference from a WAAC and a highly competitive player who tries to win using all of his skills and legal options?
    I will be honest. most of the time when I see people complaining about WAAC players I tend to think the one doing the complaining is a lets say, more casual player.
     
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  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I think the best starting definition is the guy who wants to win regardless of whether his opponent has any fun.

    Sarcastically, we called them 'fun sponges' because they suck all the fun out of playing something.
     
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  12. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Ok so are we talking about personality issues like rudeness or gameplay issues like that guy who just spams fireball until he wins when playing Streetfighter?
     
  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Mostly personality, but depending on the game it can also include rules-lawyering and/or exploits. Some guys fudge die rolls, or pick up the dice before you can see them. Deliberately "getting rules wrong" in their favor, too.
     
  14. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    Yea, I always thought of WAAC as describing someone who borderline or blatantly cheats to win/refuses to see any view but his own.

    Personality issues can definitely play a part, but I don't know about the fireball analogy. I don't think things like gameplay tactics make you a WAAC (unless you are sticking engages to walls and stuff like that). Also off-topic, as someone who's other hobby is fighting games, spamming fireballs is a totally legit tactic if your opponent can't deal with it.
     
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  15. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I think that's where the actual discussion starts. Cheating and being a jerk to your opponent is an obvious no-no, but as soon as we enter the realm of rules lawyering and super maxxed out gameplay, that's where people's opinions diverge.

    With a goal as nebulous as "having fun" and fun being a very different thing for different people, there will always be conflict between different types of players. I will almost inevitably avoid the list/unit composition/tactic that is considered to be the best, because I like to feel like the underdog, but I can completely understand the other side of the spectrum. These two approaches will usually clash and that's all within the framework of "legal play", so I don't think there is a right way to solve this, except for chosing your opponent carefully.
     
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  16. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    I prefer 'puzzle solver' to all the many derogatory and derisive terms that people have invented over the years to describe players who are most concerned with playing the game at a high level. Calling people WAAC, or fun sponge, or even competitive is clearly intended to shame or ostracize that player.

    The idea that playing competitively and playing socially are somehow mutually exclusive is an old (though admittedly intuitive) myth that should be allowed to die out. I know plenty of players who play the game at a very, very high level who are a pleasure to share a table with. ( @Myomer and @Savant come immediately to mind, but I could name at least a dozen more without having to think very hard about it)

    Instead of namecalling, maybe discuss ways and share success stories of helping players to bridge the gap?

    Consider the perspective of that player-- he wants to solve the puzzles that a game of Infinity has to offer. You might perceive it as 'win at all costs' but he perceives it as 'the right tool for the job'. A casual player's insistence on using the wrong tool can be just as frustrating for the puzzle solver as the puzzle solver's insistence on perfect efficiency is for the casual player.

    We could all be better at socializing ourselves with people who play the game for different reasons. Delineating an 'us' vs 'them' isn't going to help anyone.
     
  17. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    I think you are on point in a lot of this. I agree that we shouldn't try to force a delineation between social play and competitive play, because the two aren't mutually exclusive.

    However, I do think we need to acknowledge that there's a spectrum of reasons people come to Infinity. It has always been my impression that it lies somewhere between "I used to play 40k but got sick of arguing with WAAC players all day" and "this game has super interesting mechanics and is well balanced." I think depending on which reason someone came to play for completely affects how they want the game to be played, and that's what creates the tension.

    My most frustrating experiences (as a competitive player or "problem solver") have always been with opponents who want the game to be "loose and casual." Specifically, when they want to resolve something like a missed ARO in a way that creates a distinct advantage from a competitive standpoint, but they think is reasonable because they aren't as concerned with that based on what they want out of the game. It's one of the reasons I want to push so hard for standardized tournament rules/responses. In pick-up games, I can bridge the gap easily because it doesn't matter. Where I get frustrated is when I show up for tournaments and the same level of casual-ness is expected by some opponents that I encounter. In short, I don't think some delineation is a bad thing.
     
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  18. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    I think being able to say to an opponent (especially a stranger at a tournament) "This is what I look for in a game, what are you looking for?" is a small step that would prevent most of the problems that come from play style clashes. You'll never prevent them all.

    But I feel strongly that endless forum threads where we high-five each other for inventing derisive names for players we don't like is adding to the problems, not fixing them.
     
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  19. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    Again, I agree with you completely on cutting down on derisiveness. Asking that to my opponent would probably solve some issues up-front, but I do still desire some kind of universal precedent for a couple scenarios. I don't think that's wishing for too much, but I know many players/TOs feel differently.
     
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    There is a big difference between a highly competitive player and a WAAC fun sponge douchebag.

    If I'm at a tournament, I am playing in an attempt to win. I won't cheat, and rules lawyering will piss me off to no end, but I won't give any less than my best attempt to beat you.

    I hate losing in general, to be honest. Especially when I lose due to my own errors. You out-play me, I'm going to want to try to play better than you next time so I can win. I fuck up, I'm going to be pissed at myself.

    I'll be honest, that guy I won't play against because he's an asshole? I enjoyed the game I played against him, he made me work and work hard for every success I got. But he's an asshole around games because he only has fun when he wins and doesn't care if I am having fun.
     
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