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Battle of the Recreations: Joan vs Sun Tze

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Golem2God, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    Greetings PanOceanians & Yu Jingese,

    Having bought Sun Tze recently & planning on grabbing the new Joan/Jeanne soon I began pondering on which of these two recreations would win on the tabletop and what lists people build with each of them in Vanilla or Sectorials. So I got the idea to ask the players of both factions to spout their opinions and experiences on Aleph's "gift" to their respective nations.

    Which version/loadout of each character do you consider useful or better than the other?
    Do they shine in Vanilla or Sectorials (MO & ISS) more?
    Should they take the lead as Lt. or not?
    How would you build a list to combat Joan/Sun Tze utilizing Joan/Sun Tze?
    Who of the two would win in a 1v1 duel?
     
  2. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    I threw down Joan v2 in a 200pt Annihilaion game recently and it was almost unfair. She brings cheap orders to the table which is almost a necessity in killy-killy low points missions, she is a massive threat herself with a fast accurate Spitfire, and the free Coordinated Order is just extra useful.

    In my game she won me the WIP roll, letting me go first. As my reserve model she went down after a Sin Eater was already placed, then she counterdeployed it as she was the best solution to take it out. She sprinted forward into the 0 rangeband, ducked out of cover and hosed him down. After that she went on a rampage and survived a point blank Panzerfaust from a Gecko, ended my first turn engaging it. She killed it the next turn, then started a back line rampage that ended with a complete tabling of the Nomads.

    I wasn’t sure that I was going to like Joan v2 (losing the armor hurts my play style) but the 6-2 move was golden.

    I’ll have to get some more games in with v2 before I draw a solid conclusion, but first impressions are that she is very fun.
     
  3. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    First of all they're very different types of characters.

    Joan is a warrior-leader, commanding from the frontlines. She has a limited choice of loadouts, and from those I'd pass on non-Lt. AP CCW ones. The rest is all usable. Standard version is good if she will be part of the link or if we expect to need increased durability; Mobility version is great on its own. Non-Lt. versions are good if you don't plan on using Irregular troops and want to mess with your opponent, as she's almost always Lt. In vanilla she gives us some Regular mercs, but in MO we can put her in a fireteam. She's a viable option either way, and regardless of version you want her up close, 8-16" from the enemy.

    Sun Tze is the tactician, hanging back and providing his army with bonuses. No fireteam options means that restricting to IS gives him no particular bonus. Marksman version is obviouly more vulnerable, and won't last long as an ARO piece, but is viable as active turn sniper. HI version is durable enough for CQB, but BS12 hurts a lot. Since YJ has easy access to CoC there's no real reason to use non-Lt. version.

    Both are affected by the recent changes which made Shock ammo shut down NWI on 2W models, so against each other both would be best using a Multi Rifle. For MO I'd probably go with something like that:

    [​IMG] Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50)
    [​IMG] BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 23)
    [​IMG] BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] CRUSADER MULTI Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Coordinated Attack on Joan, Bulleteer and Black Friar allow to move quickly and efficiently. Friar should disable any MSV ARO troops, Bulleteer deal with others, Joan can then use the opening to for Sun Tze. In 1vs1 she should hand him his head, especially in CC. Meanwhile Crusader flanks and takes down any CoC unit that might be around.
     
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  4. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    What?! Since when?

    Can I have a link to this one? The wiki page for shock says otherwise but it's not a very well maintained resource at the best of times.
     
  5. Aldo

    Aldo Well-Known Member

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    Infinitythegame.com
    Resources
    Downloads
    FaQ.pdf
     
  6. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    How does Shock Special Ammunition affect troops in
    whose troop profile the value of their Wounds Attribute is
    greater than 1 and these have Special Skill V: Dogged or
    V: No Wound Incapacitation?


    Special effects of ammunition are not applied to troops
    with a Wounds Attribute greater than 1, but Special Shock
    Ammunition nullifies the effects of Special Skill Valor Leve
    2: Dogged and Valor Level 3: No Wound Incapacitation.
    For example: an Asura that loses its last wound, caused
    by Special Ammunition Shock can not activate V: No
    Wound Incapacitation and this would go to Unconscious
    state. It would become Unconscious and not the Dead
    state for having a Wound Attribute greater than 1.

    Not sure there was a change to the rules recently then if the FAQ and wiki both suggest otherwise. That makes me happy, because I thought i'd been playing it wrong.
     
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Until the FAQ came out, the ruling was that NWI troops with 2 wounds were outright inmunne to shock ammo, treating it as normal and being able to activate NWI. Now, they cannot if the shock ammo took out their last wound, so they go to KO instead to NWI. Aside from the Su Jian, that is, since it is NWI with STR2
     
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  8. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Ohh I misread before!

    So now it's they don't go straight to dead but they also don't get to activate dogged/NWI.

    So they go unconscious? Thats...awkward.
     
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  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Basically, yeah. It's a "nerf" to NWI, but what I don't really like is how it complicates things, before it was as simple as "2+ wounds, STR or " inmunity, and you ignore Shock", now is "oh, wait, you have 2 wounds, but one is down already, so now Shock does not kill you but send you to Unconscious", a mess.
     
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  10. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    I'm glad NWI got nerfed, because 2W NWI is just a cheeky way of having 3W cost less, which I find very abusive and poorly designed. Sort of like Frenzy discounts on units you always take in a fireteam. But anyway.

    I actually use Joan a lot, and occasionally see my local ISS player put down his Sun Tze. I usually lose to this player because he's quite the tactician, but when he runs Tze it usually because he's trying a more quirky strategy, maybe one focussing more heavilly on defensive AROs. Whenever he runs that unit the games are usually much more close than they otherwise would be, which I think just means its likely to be a jarring playstyle for my opponent to use.

    I feel Joans advantage is really easy to leverage where as Sun Tzes requires more careful consideration. I prefer the sniper version, which is to say he's been frustratingly effective against me in the past. I'd rather stare down the HI version because I have more tools to deal with that as a PanO player, but a well placed hardy sniper requires very specific tools. Tze also does his job when he's just standing overwatch as well, which is really nice.

    I love Joan but she really warps how you build a list around her, I can't remember who said it but it amounts to playing 'Joan Sectorial' even in Vanilla. She is really a top tier profile, whereas i'm not sure the same can be said for Sun Tze.
     
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  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    The problem is now a lot of units with 2W and NWI feel too expensive.

    As for Joan, she is SO good that if your playing Vanilla you better take Joan as your LT. Shes one of the top reasons to play vanilla Pano.
     
  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    There's also Cutter, Jotum, Croc Men, or Nisse, but I agree she's top of the line when it comes to heavy duty Lt's.
     
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  13. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    All of those things do well in my joan lists, lol.
     
  14. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    personally I like the counter play of shock ammo to NWI, even on two wounds.

    It makes multi rifles better , and it makes my favorite x visor crane even scarier.

    As for Joan vs sun tze, Joan is better as a game piece, sun tze is better for tactics. But sun tze is an overpriced Saladin. Thats his problem in my eyes.
     
  15. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Warcore+Techbee
    Doble Croc Men
    HMH Nisses
    ad some flavor
    Win
     
  16. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    [​IMG] PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] CUTTER MULTI HMG / . (2.5 | 115)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    [​IMG] SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 27)
    [​IMG] NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    What you said is a fun template to be sure. Though I did turn the HMG into a Sniper because I feel it works better in this list, and the double croc man is actually one croc man and a spec sergeant. But eh, it works.
     
  17. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Thats the beauty, you can do loads of things with it!!

    You can also turn it to notch 11 and go ultra bullshit with SoF!!!


    [​IMG] PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50)
    [​IMG] CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    [​IMG] CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    [​IMG] SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 27)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] NISSE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] YUAN YUAN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 9)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] YUAN YUAN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] YUAN YUAN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 9)

    3.5 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Worst part of this is that i can completely imagine myself using it, so much cheeeeeessseeeeee
     
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  18. T. Rex Pushups

    T. Rex Pushups Well-Known Member

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    That is one heck of a well organized laser light show you have there.
     
  19. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Light, smokes, fat clowns from the sides, invisible mimes from the middle...... its all about the showmanship and style
     
  20. T. Rex Pushups

    T. Rex Pushups Well-Known Member

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    Are we sure Joan isn’t simply hallucinating after having eaten some moldy bread?

    This sounds...implausible.