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Battle of Recreations: Sun Tze vs Joan

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Golem2God, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    Greetings Yu Jingese & PanOceanians,

    Having bought Sun Tze recently & planning on grabbing the new Joan/Jeanne soon I began pondering on which of these two recreations would win on the tabletop and what lists people build with each of them in Vanilla or Sectorials. So I got the idea to ask the players of both factions to spout their opinions and experiences on Aleph's "gift" to their respective nations.

    Which version/loadout of each character do you consider useful or better than the other?
    Do they shine in Vanilla or Sectorials (MO & ISS) more?
    Should they take the lead as Lt. or not?
    How would you build a list to combat Joan/Sun Tze utilizing Joan/Sun Tze?
    Who of the two would win in a 1v1 duel?
     
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I wouldn't field Sun Tze if he wasn't my lieutenant either in Vanilla or ISS. Joan I would definitely take as a lieutenant in Vanilla if I was going to field her, but maybe not in MO if I was going to link her (since you lose part of what makes inspiring leadership so powerful). Sun Tze v.2 is just pretty lackluster for anything except winning the lieutenant roll off without the huge deployment advantage, extra order and command token.

    I really have no idea what the purpose of the v.1 Sun Tze is even for. 60 points for a Multi Rifle or Boarding shotgun? BS12? Total Immunity is cool, and 2 wounds + NWI is also cool, but he just doesn't have enough aggressive utility for what he costs. 1/5 of my army for a cheerleader with Strategos L3? Not worth it. I think the same applies to v.2 since he only has MSV1, but at least he can do his job as a sniper a bit better.
     
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  3. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Sun tze is very worth in specific situations ( decapitation, or the RIP armoury mission TT). The sniper version can carry but is expensive + you should field a chain of comand agent. The sniper version is worth in ISS to help a Su Jian in rambo mode with the deploy avantatges and covering and cleaning total reactions etc. But pnly beacause iss have kuang shi farm and can "spam" +50 point models

    Joana can be a very strong carry and his utility as a leutinent is strong too. I'm Yu Jing but in 1vs 1 joan win
     
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  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    In MO Joan brings 2 extra regular orders (Warcor and Tech Bee) for +8 points, so even linked she gives you extra punch. Add the Mercenaries extra, and you suddenly get +2 Warcors, and the smoke from the Yuan Yuan (extreme impetuous troops you can deploy without using their AD to give smoke combo to your MSV2 order sargeants)
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sun Tze is worth it, but not as clearly as Joan. Also, Joan is a fighter, Sun is not, Joan wins in a fight.

    I don't think even Loricus would argue that the non-LT profiles for either should ever be used.
     
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  6. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    People say Joan would win in a fight, I'd actually bet on V2, MSR Sun. Especially with the last FaQ on Shock his MSR would hurt Joan quite a bit.

    And thanks to Total Diplomatic Inmunity Sun doesn't care about that FaQ
     
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  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    He's pretty heavily favored outside of 32 inches
    during active and reactive turns, and also pretty good 16 and 32 against Joan v.1, assuming both have cover. The only place it starts getting a little dicey is inside 24 inches during the active turn, where Joan v.2 has a 25% chance to wound him back, and where she has a 60% chance to wound him during her own active turn.

    But yeah, anything you should be using a Sniper for, Sun Tze is hugely favored against both Joan profiles, in both the active and reactive turn.
     
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  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    He’s really good for ISS 10 Order lists, were your opponent cannot remove 2 orders. Don’t think about his weapons, he has a WIP17 flaspulse and with Total immunity and mimitism, he’s insanely annoying to remove. Deny your opponent any reserves and enjoy having 11 orders for your duo link Su Juan go on an obnoxious rampage. There’re actually few lists that are capable of dealing with such blunt force alpha strike lists in any efficient matter.
     
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  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Just make sure to have them casevac a kuang shi around. Will deal with any pesky hackers trying to get into range of them.

    I think you can effectively make those double cat lists even out of ISS if you bring an EVO remote too.
     
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  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Su Jian is AVA1 in Vanilla, unfortunately. I still have never figured out how TeamPro could be useful in YJ.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Oooooh, I like that one!
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Extensive use of Wu Ming, Shang-Ji and/or Domaru. Don't think it's very effective, however, but mostly because making actual use of it requires you to plan on getting turn 2, which is... great.
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    You merely need a command token, it’s not something that can only be done in deployment. If you have turn 1, you will need a regular order and a command token to form the link. Turn 2 is simply a command token to activate the program and allows you to deploy your duo. Either way, it costs you a command token in vanilla.
     
    #13 Zewrath, Dec 2, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    1 CT per couple. I'm not convinced Duo is potent enough that 1 order + 1 CT is worth it, let alone 1 CT per couple. You're going to need a really strong couple to make use of it, and I don't believe such a couple exists in YJ (because Su-Jian and Shikami are AVA 1) though theoretically Oyama + Spitfire Domaru does come close (Spitfire for delivering Oyama safely, plus keeping the Spitfire from going Impetuous, though that latter part is a bit... possibly a drawback).
     
  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Well.. yeah, technically, but I’d be genuinely surprised if you could find anything in a YJ list that had a viable double duo link. It’s hard enough to justify even 1 duo. Heck, even in sectorials it’s almost a given that you don’t run more than a single duo. xD
     
  16. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, thats terrifying. Camo spam and Hidden Deployment spam lists come to mind as the few that might weather the storm. That and Jammer spam, damn you HaqqIslam.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The Hsien Haris likes camo spam, or failing that coordinating two Weibing and a Chaiyi to create a massive Sensor net using only one or two orders is also fun solution to camo spam (if they infiltrate).
    Theoretically. Practically I've only faced true camo spam once, and that's when I REM spammed and 20 orders on REMs with three support hackers (spec ops tournament) is terrifying for Ariadna.
     
  18. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Can you take both a Hsien Haris, remotes, and Sun Tze + duo Su Jian? Of course, you could take two lists, one with Su Jian ramboing and the other with Hsien Haris and remote spam.
     
  19. det

    det Member

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    I played a Sun vs Joan game on monday...Joan got killed by a lucky ARO from a raiden hrl...yep, she failed 4 armour rolls in a row...whatever.

    I like sun v1 with boarding shotgun. Up close he actually is nasty in active turn too...
     
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  20. det

    det Member

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    uhm...double post...
     
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