Consider that the mk2 hacker is only AHD, so no FO, no AHD, no... and only Boarding Shotgun loadout, plus it is the only loadout whithout official model... Sure, it covers 2 of the Dasyu's profiles (MSR and AHD) but the dasyu has others. And mines.
Sure, you'll need the dasyu, if you want something else, but.. The MK2 is a TO trooper at half the price. One that does not cause you to lose any orders, while biding its time - that alone is worth the 0.5 SWC. It is a a resource, that comes so cheap, that you do not need to use it. I've won plenty of games, simply because this guy could sit besides an objective, only to jump out at the last moment and apply his WIP15. Dasyus can do the same, but not unless you compromise your main order pool, or plan on spending command tokens.
What @regelridderen said, plus one underestimates the power of shotguns on Camo troops at his peril...
Well, alright, let's say I am ready to pay more for a non-PH option : - The Mk4, well there is none at all. No S2 HMG, and no HRL in all of the army anywhere else. - Want a close combat midfield option with a short range weapon that is not the Mk5 ? None come to mind - Want a combat-able medic to follow the pack ? or an engineer for objectives/TAG grooming ? Here is the sophotec with his BS11 and no mimetism to save his ass. I am not going to argue th Mk2 hacker is not great, but notice how the Post-human profiles are hyper restrictive : - Mk2 hacker has no combi or non-hacker option, KHD beware. The other option has a completely different role - Mk4 is always at least 2SWC with not middle ground at all - Mk5 is either up the table close to the enemy or futher back using the Mk12 range And I'd be okay with that. The absence of the Thorakitai will be more painful than the netrods imo. I still expect to field more repeater bots in VEDIC so 2 netrods to reasonably expect one on the table to save the PH's order and a repater remote : 2/3 orders for 16 points is pretty goodc.
Well, daikini can fire a HMG for you. Although you’ll have to go with a GL if you want templates - or Phoenix. How about a naga minelayer with a shotgun? Or a MK2 hacker? Don’t underestimate the sophotec - although you can get a nice daikini medic for specialist duty. Yeah, but no one is complaining about, how Achilles doesn’t come with a KHD. Not all troops need to do all things, but the problem with posthumans is, that they do, what they do at a fraction of the cost.
I REALLY hate the "this unit may be clearly better than all other options... but it's NOT OP" argument. Like, seriously, do you not understand what Over Powered means? For my money, it's all about cost. The SWC on a couple of options would probably need re-tweaking (looking at you Mk 3) but slap another 5pts onto all of the profiles and I would have a LOT fewer complaints about them having one of the most effective sets of rules in the game. Then we won't have to feel bad about the idea of there being more than one Post Human in Vedic (not that you hear Haqq players being all ashamed of their 8 Ghazi or Yu Jing players apologising for 8 Kuang Shi in the respective Sectorials).
Personnally, i'm a bit tired of hearing complains about the unit without taking the whole army into account ... If Aleph was that op, that would be known. Just as an example, Interplanetario results don't really shows a great Aleph dominance to begin with. So i personnally quite disagree with the statement "posthumans are op". The problem is not really the posthumans, but the whole Aleph. You want weaker posthumans ? Fine, but gives us relevant Asuras and sophotechs. Don't just go and nerf one unit without taking the whole army balance into account !
Sure..... but also just because Posthumans (or any other single unit) is overpowered/undercosted doesn't mean the entire army is overpowered, especially if other underpowered/overpriced units are present. Even internally within the faction having one clearly underpriced unit skews list construction because it becomes the cruch unit that all lists end up being based around. If Posthumans (and other choices, such as the Asura) all had points costs that were reflective of their power/utility, you'd see much greater list diversity.
I'm more than happy to see posthumans (or some proxies) increase in cost by a few points so long as it is offset by reduction in the points cost on the units I actually want to use (asura, sophotect, dasyu, deva). I wonder if rather than a point cost an extra 0.5 swc tax on mk1,2 & 5 might make a difference. A 1swc AHD with a boarding shotgun might make the mk2 less attractive. 0.5swc doctor or FO likewise.
Yeah, Posthumans being OP is a problem BECAUSE it gives people cause to say "weak Asura is ok because Posthumans make up for it" which is bullshit. I'm boggled by the idea of anyone complaining about Sophotechs 'though. They are one of the best units you can get for their cost in the game. The idea of a small SWC tax on the other Posthumans might also be viable. You would need to revisit the high cost options 'though and rebalance SWC across the faction as a whole.
I don't see how the posthumans pigeon hole a list into a certain design. At 20 points minimum, there is a large amount of points left for whatever functionality the builder wants. I personally like the mk2 sniper and ahd but I have built my Achilles list without them and currently have no intentions to make room. I am interested in the mk4 at times but find the 2 swc at an obscene cost regardless of the 20/25 points. mk3 is bad because same 2 swc cost but hmg is superior and i don't care as much by 6-2 as the total distance moved is the same. mk2 does not invalidate the naga/dasyu as those 2 can be khd which is quite critical as mentioned in many other threads about that power. also the mines that naga has and dasyu might have is enough to make me take them in conjunction of the mk2. for mk5, i feel that he doesn't invalidate other forward moving models. they are either good in their own right and will be brought along or they are just bad (imho) and the mk5 isn't what is stopping that model from being brought. For naga/dasyu, those models will be brought with the mk5 because they are all solid choices. For models like chandra sergeant or andromeda they are debateably bad. for mk1, you only get 1 skilled specialist choice (mostly engineer/doctor) but the other options to be doctor/engineer are all pricey. The thorakite engineer is solid choice, but dactyls and sophotec is just expensive. 31 points for a model that is garbage at fighting is terrible. I want multiple orders or someone capable of putting up a fight for those points. So not having a mk1 does not give my list more options, it makes the same functionality more expensive. That is what i feel this entire thread is wrong about. Nerfing the posthumans won't make Aleph stronger or give the list building more variety. it just makes the good tools we have more expensive but we gain no power elsewhere.
And this probably sums the view of the one side of the debate. But understand that for the rest of us, it is not about making Aleph more powerful, nor about nerfing the faction. It is about balancing the army internally, so it can stand without crutches - Infinity as a whole is nicely balanced, and any imbalances are more about the nature of missions, than the armies. Somebody made a brainfart with HSN3, when they rebalanced the oft overlooked Posthuman by both giving it a further discount and taking away the balancing features - its that simple.
I am sorry, but to say that post humans is a crutch is like saying the danavas is a crutch. They can cost about the same and you should arguably have 1 in every list. Its like you will see an interventor in every nomad list. The part that makes posthumans good and an interesting choice is that there is no 1 combo of mks that is the correct choice. And once they are on the table they have no mechanic that is op besides the inability to remove their order.
One thing I think we could change would be to make all posthuman hackable like an HI. After all they are technological bodies every bit as complex as any HI, so they should share the same weakness to hacking. This would balance the mk1 & 5 by adding one more weakness to posthumans (weakness to isolation, no command token reroll for healing, no coordinated order with more than 1 posthuman) without making them too vulnerable
True. The PH are too good compared to other options, making them a mandatory choice. That sure lower diversity (even if the multiple PH loadout somewhat compensate for it) By the way, @AdmiralJCJF, in my opinion, the problem with the sophotech is not that she's bad, but she has no real room in Aleph. She is overshadowed by Machaon who is far superior as a field specialist for a comparable price, and by Mk1 eng or thorakite eng for engineer's work. In a way, if you need to do an objective, Mach' can do it better and without any support (he can clean enemies or throw eclipse by himself), if you need heal, he can do it as well, and if you really need an engineer, well, you just take a cheaper option. Many armies would kill to have a sophotech in their ranks, but the sad thing is that us Aleph, who own her, don't really need her.
The Sophotec used to be amazing, back when specialist objectives required a straight WIP roll, with a -3 penalty for not having the correct trait. When they changed the ITS rules to the current, they pretty much invalidated the various Specialist skills, and now Forward Observers seem to do everything that matters from laser painting to programming cryo-coffins.
Should we start naming "must align" troops for all factions? Zeros, Foxtrots, Spetznatz, Intruder, Interventor, Kuang Shi, Su Jian, Mutta'Wiah, those frigging Ghulam healing at 17 for 16 points, Myrmidons... XD Considering how the faction spends SWC... And Aleph needs more HI, right now Vedic has Asura and Mk3/4, while the greeks have Achilles, Hector, and Ajax. Even adding AVA, the "elite force" has a whopping 1 TAG and 7 HI troops as a whole... Bakunin alone equals or surpasses those numbers XD
I agree. We also play 20x20 and she is far better here since Engineer is a frequent requirement and rolling WIP+3 is great :) But right now, FO are far better in ITS since they are just better overall (flash pulse ...) and often cheaper than many other specialists. In a way it is a problem too, since FO is often just 1 pt more than the standard loadout, thus overshadowing said loadout. For example, why take the standard thorakite instead of the FO thorakite ?
