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Balancing for player skill

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Superfluid, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    You must work within the framework the game designer wants though, since premeasuring and perfect information are purposefully kept out of the game system, the whole balance framework is build around the concept of skill and risk giving greater rewards, giving the players perfect spacial placement means that the balance is thrown off and the advantage is multiplied for the active player who has the decision making.

    Moving the game to a perfect information framework would need a massive rework since the active player has more power and precision at his disposal.
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Utter tripe. Infinity's ruleset isn't even precise enough for us to be sure about what the balance is; since enough of it is poorly written/ambiguous enough that the community as a whole gets blindsided by things like the current interaction of Shock and NWI with multiple wound models.

    And even if it was, designers can still have objectively shitty viewpoints about balance (see, for example, the way the hacking program Breakwater is written).
     
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  3. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    +1 with plebeian post above.

    You guys are arguing about a highly hypothetical gottcha ARO thing. You are the only guys to play like this.

    More than 30 pages ... It starts to look like a doctoral thesis (phd in the US I believe).

    I hope you love debate cause with all the time you spent arguing you could have paint a whole army. :D

    Addressing the initial topic now, I think that the more relaxe you play the more attractive it makes the game. If I was to introduce the game to new player telling them "you move but don't move your mini yet, you have to show the direction, put the silhouette and ... " everybody in my local club would drop the game.

    In the end I don't understand why you can't premesure everything in this game. Would make it easier, more attractive and address all these issues you are debating about.

    Malifaux, king of war even warma and 40k they all allow premesure.

    I believe that would be the best way to go, especially on a table with no square like chess where mini fall, terrains are moved by sudden gesture and have to be replaced.
    cause the time.
     
  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Because it was decided against it.

    @Hecaton tone it down please.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The game plays fine with intent. Infinity is nowhere near tightly balanced enough that that actually upsets anything; I'm really confused as to why you're trying to claim otherwise.
     
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  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I remarked on your aggressive tone not what you said the above answer was directly on why the game has no premeasuring, it was suggested, discussed and decided against.

    on your actual question we have a thread discussing it do not expand the discussion on multiple threads.
     
  7. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    But my point is the most anally precise players are already playing the game this way and ensuring perfect pie slicing.

    If you're saying the framework needs to change to balance the possible power level of these units when played optimally then you're admitting that huge swathes of units are likely to be unbalanced ("overpowered") when played by those aforementioned players.

    Or that those units are all going to be underpowered if they aren't played meticulously slowly with lots of checking.

    I guess there is no possible outcome or decision that can be reached by this thread, I just wanted to put this up for discussion and see what people thought, what with it being a slightly different angle on the infinitely sprawling 'intent' issue.
     
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  8. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Oh, sorry dude, I thought I saw a post in the main discussion saying 'don't derail the thread with other points or we'll remove them' and I felt my point was was 'adjacent' to the 'Rules as Written' vs 'Ettiquette Box' debate going on.
     
  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Indeed, there are few players who can do it natural, most people cannot, it is a skill based gameplay reward, like people managing to know what distance two points on the battlefield are.

    Should these skill based rewards be in the game? how much it affects gameplay? I think this is what the thread is about right?
     
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  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I am deeply sorry if it was not worded well, I meant it as a reply exclusively to @Hecaton
     
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  11. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Kind of, basically.

    My thought process was:

    1) People believe that being able to use Intent to move to corners to 'just see that guy' and then back, has a power advantage.

    2) In nearly all cases (where units aren't vertically stacked above each other) It is physically possible to achieve this pie slicing, thus the power advantage must exist for players that can consistently perform the action.

    3) Is this power advantage:
    A) Balanced across units and factions? Are the designers using playtest data where players are fudging these movements consistently and thus potentially creating undercosted powerhouses or are designers using intent heavy playtest data thus making players work harder to get the expected value from these units?
    B) As valuable a skill test as the range estimation, how comparable is it? How much impact does this skill test have on the outcome of an order?
    C) A valuable skill test in a turn based strategy game? Does More Skill Tests = Better Game?

    And thus the thread was born.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Forget skill, how wobbly the legs of the table you're playing on or how much friction the scenery pieces have with the table shouldn't be a factor in the game, no matter how much you want it to be so.

    Since our choices are: Have the steadiness of a player's hands be a factor, but also make random wobbles of the table and scenery matter in a potentially game-changing way, or cut both out... I'll choose to cut both out.

    If I wanted to play that way I'd play competitive Jenga.
     
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  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Are you hyperbolic for the sake of been hyperbolic? or simply trying to find at what point I will decide you made the most ridiculous argument I have read?

    Can you please take a discussion seriously? you keep devaluating the debates on most recent threads?
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's called reducto ad absurdum, and the "gotcha" argument is vulnerable to this kind of attack because it fails to consider its own practical implications.
     
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  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Well you can use that if you have no arguments, suit yourself.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    What I described is literally a way to poke holes in flimsy ideas. It *is* a counterargument.
     
  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    No, it is not what you cite is outrageous possibilities of illogical extremes, I am sorry you have no real arguments, please try to be constructive on the discussion.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's the logical extension of your viewpoint. If you can't make those logical conclusions, you're really up a creek.
     
  19. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    No I can really assume that like any skill based game that the playing area is sufficiently steady, stable and the players are in a normal physical state, if you play in an inadequate table play in one, if the player is physically handicapped work around it outside the rules for him or her to enjoy the game, the game rules do not need to accommodate any and all "possible" extremities, something that play by intent does not help with anyway, so it falls in the same category.
     
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  20. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    RIP in pepperoni, my original topic.:astonished:
     
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