Balance issues in N4

This would instantly cause huge issues, there a several sectorials/profiles built around Frenzy/Fury just existing as an arbitrary 7+ point discount. For your idea to be viable lots of shit like Riot GRRLs, Moiras, and Teutons would need to be totally overhauled to keep them viable.

2 of Bakunin's primary core links are built around this, MO's fireteams are basically held up on the backs of Teutons with the current state of Hospi's. It's not feasible as a blanket change.

The reality is the mechanic has existed like it has for 2 editions now and it's attached to alot of things in the game. Should it be changed? Yes, but it requires an extensive and in depth overhaul. It is not an easy fix at this point it's been baked into the core of the game for too long.

 

GravityPool mentions in his second IP video (regarding the games he played) that two of the tables were his (we all have something at home to assemble a table, you know it's true... even if we lack the space to assemble it fully XD). And he also mentions that he helped to assemble some (and asked the organization to play in a neutral table when by chance he had to play in one of those).

Other tables are made,as I mention, in a theme and come from a partner. A horrible table was shared somewhere made only by some kind of barriers not taller than any TAG on top of a black tablecloth with white strings of zeros and ones (binary chains) on repeat... fortunately that one was retired after the first day.

Somehow, as it has been mentioned, Kraken got the better half of Greek players, and Pulpi the GML ones... Or the people who was able to deal with GML lists was in Kraken and the ones who didnt were in Pulpi, dunno.
Again, from GravityPool's video (kraken) he faced 3 greeks, but no GML list.

too much accounting, better apply the Frenzy the same way linked or not, so for example Eudoros could use his Impetuous order but drop out of the fireteam but would never have Cover, or Thorakitai would lose cover the turn after they cause a wound, etc...
(again, I think the problem with SP is more in the new profiles and a few changes than in stablished stuff, however).

In this instance, and keeping in mind that I agree Eudoros need to lose some stuff (even if that makes him cheaper, solving an issue is not something you can deal just by increasing the cost until it's unplayable), I disagree. Makaul is a 13pts troop with Eclipse and BIG flamethrowers, that links with every Triad, so they can cart around a specialist to score and a battle piece if so desired, so they are nearly in the same boat as the SP eclipse smokers. The problem are those that can be topped, carry eclipse and also are the specialist themselves.

not being able to claim cover after causing a wound is not that big of an impact, but I suppose they could pay for mimetism-3? Anyways, I for once would love to see CB overhauling ALL profiles in a sensible way instead of applying patches over patches because they need to drill those holes in order to sell us the tape to cover them XD

 

I mean, you could just remove the ability to selectively ignore the downside of the ability in a Fireteam. That really wouldn't break anything, save making a few discount HRLs into a riskier proposition for hard ARO use.

 

It's an arbitrary global nerf, it won't fit as a one size fits all approach. You have to figure out whether each and everyone of these units can cope with becoming easier to kill, being ARM3 instead of 6 is a major impact (are Domaru balanced for their cost if they're functionally base ARM0?). Mimetism doesn't work against MSV, Moiras already pay for -6....

It's a big mess to unravel.

It would literally destroy Teuton fireteams overnight and put MO in the dumpster, I don't know what you're smoking.

 

I'm not sure we're disagreeing here.

Given the amount of Mirrorball in Tohaa, if Mirrorball was changed to White Noise only they could easily have basic Smoke on Makauls and still have plenty of White Noise/Eclipse options around as well.

Alternately if Mirrorball became basic Smoke (which is probably the best idea) and Makauls are cheap, in every triad, and have -both- basic smoke and White Noise/Eclipse options, the availability of blocking for any situation is still very high. It doesn't matter much whether the MSV-blocker is coming from your Makaul or your Fart Magic Specialist who also does 3 other things (and I say this with a ton of love for Tohaa).

The order efficiency to block everything -at once- goes down for Tohaa then just as it does for SP, which I think is a Very Good Thing.

Eclipse is a one-solution-fits-all thing in a game that is at its best when it forces choices and does not have an Obvious Best Choice Always option (I'm looking at you, N2 HMGs and current Template Spam).

Making Eclipse the White Noise Grenade and making players spend extra orders on that is the clear choice in my mind.

 

As someone who was there and assembling tables I must say.
80% of the tables where balanced, like 10% were overstacked with scenery and there were some 3 or 4 outliers that were lacking scenery.
Most of the tables were provided by individuals, in my case I provided a full table from Acid House Terrain and one from Collateral. If anyone knows those, you know AHT table is excessive even for infinity and Collateral provides a good balance between dense areas and open spaces.

On the other side there were some lacking boards. In my case I played my 5th game in a board from the Logroño Warcor, Eliseo that was very beautiful but totally lacking on scenery specially on deployment. I played there on decapitation so the extra deployment helped, but the organization had to shift players that were playing biotechvore there because the mission simply didn't allow to deploy anywhere in cover.

That said there were 3-4 outliers in a 90 table tournament. Most of the players agreed the boards were properly packed and we made sure there was even cover on the edges and the deployment ends to allow for parachutists to enter.

 

It's an unfortunate fact sometimes people build stunning tables that deliver perfect dioramas but actually play like shit when you try to use them.

 

Only, this would change Tohaa a lot. The Makauls are there not as smokers, but as hidden-movers. Tohaa is limited to TWO (yes, just two) smokers in the whole army, the Kerails (the guys with big scaly doggos); this change would directly x4 their smoker options, and they have 4 MSV2 (gao rael) and 7 MSV1...
Just pointing that solving one issue would very likely create another.

How is a very good thing nerfing something that has been comparatively nerfed for years? First, Haris became available for all, and now some sectorials have 1 core and 2 haris, please tell me how this is not better than "unlimited haris" or "unlimited expensive 4man core".

I disagree, I think the problem is in specific combinations in SP there, and if a white noise grenade is added, I'm all up for giving it to Eudoros instead of Eclipse (and even Machaon if you insist), but remember one thing:

Steel Phalanx is a sectorial of Heroes, and has been designed always with this core tenet, so no matter the changes, we need to still see a hero followed by 2-3 "mooks" breaking the tide. This "excessive eclipse smoke presence" boils down to Hyppolita (not very used), Eudoros (overachiever, should lose some skills and definitely go back to 1 wound/STR + NWI), Machaon (unchanged since N2!!!) and the BSG Myrmidon Officer (AVA 3, 29pts as Lt, 34 points as CoC)

Also, making all smoke templates to fall in the same place would possibly solve a lot of issues (you keep the B bonus to dodge, but do not plant 2 templates per order)

 

Okay very good point there. Very good reason to be cautious with adding normal smoke.

Maybe, just maybe, Mirrorball could remain the sole source of normal AND White Noise smoke. It would make sense for an advanced civilization, and throw Tohaa a small bone at least.

Increasing the amount of coordinated mixed teams is not a nerf to Tohaa, to ISS, or to Steel Phalanx. It's a great play direction for Infinity in general, and definitely something that cannot be put back in the box.

I feel for Tohaa and look forward to seeing them refreshed eventually, but overall game balance shouldn't be examined from a partisan viewpoint. And I say this as someone who loves mothballed/ignored factions.

Sure, and again I don't think we're disagreeing here really. Those Heroes are always going to have mooks with basic Smoke around them too.

The idea is to just require additional orders to be protected from LoF for -everything- in the open. This encourages clever use of terrain or careful preparation for a charge by taking out opposing ARO troops, instead of "I throw Eclipse grenades on PH17 and negate your careful preparation, I win."

IMO requiring more thought and choice (and risk) makes Infinity more interesting. Removing Obvious Best Choice weapons/options has made the game way better. Eclipse is the Obvious Best Choice right now, and it needs to be changed.

This is -also- a good option. It can be done in addition to changing Eclipse Grenades to White-Noise-only.[/QUOTE]

 

True! This is why guidance on table setup really needs to go into the rulebooks and fluffbooks, even more than painting guides etc.

Spoiler: Terrain tangent

A really good 2-page spread explaining the basics would be super handy:

- Having decent DZ cover (right angles especially)
- Breaking cross-table lines on table edges, including the back deployment edges
- Leaving deployment zones -slightly- asymmetrical/one better than the other, but not totally screwing the player with the worse one.
- Having maybe 1-2 good cross-table long fire lanes or killzones but not more
- Having at least one S7 piece of cover in at least one of the deployment zone
- Having some climbable /jumpable stuff somewhere

(Largely cribbed from Robert Shepard's terrain/DZ video iirc, but also from lots of other posts on this forum, and my own painful experience. :) ).

And the stereotypes are definitely true for terrain by area:

Here in the US the issue is usually overdensity, or modeled interiors that are too fiddly for fast tourney play. It seems to be a good rule here to set up, then -remove- a piece or two.

In Europe I played on a lot of overly sparse tables and a lot more "natural" gamestore terrain from other games that just got ruled as Saturation Zones. Adding a single building or re-thinking the deployment zone cover would have helped a lot with that stuff. Less of an option at Interplanetario though due to the may very different play cultures participating, people seemed less okay with correcting the terrain before the game by mutual agreement with your opponent.

No idea in Aus/NZ or on TTS though, would be interested to hear more about that

 

I've uploaded all Interplanetario tables to imgur:
https://imgur.com/gallery/yLl990S

 

Some of those tables look fine, and some of them... woof.

 

And yet, somehow, GML won Interplanetario.

But if CB wants to fix something, oh yes stopping the linkable frenzies/imps would be a great first step, but then how would they be able to cheat their own perfect formula? (besides giving flat out free discounts, not like that doesn't happen)

 

and also satellites in Finland, Latvia and Portugal

 

Make Eclipse White Noise so now Phoenix can smoke trick kill that pesky MSV trooper slowing you down instead of ignoring them.

 

Says the guy who admits he doesn't even play and is internationally known for only saying negative things. I think half the internet safely discards your opinions.

 

i mean yeah, you are still here.