Probably not going to be a new Veronin @HellLois is just not so subtly teasing about the upcoming TAK release.
I am sorry, you got me wrong. I tried to ask for critic between the gains of different Upgraded-Data-Trackers on a Let's-have-a-look-at-the-whole-army-in-relation-to-the-upgraded-Data-Tracker-level. I am not expecting it is even - I just thought, a look at the individual troopers is ... maybe out of context? Your "No" is fine for me. It was one of the options. May I ask you why you think, they all should get an equally strong datatracker? From my point of view I like the differences between the factions. I like their different gimmicks, their individual focus on troop types and so on. I am surprised, that every human nation (and ALEPH) even got a comparable piece. It feels right to me, that not all of them are even. I think, some armies have other aces up there sleeves... (And yes, I don't like those first prize mercenaries: Le muet or the krakot. Their "customers" are too arbitrary. And it is not even "fair", because all mercenaries add something to an army - some had it before, some have it now... )
If someone else got the wrong impression of me too: I appreciate criticism - I say: "Please, tell me about your anger and frustration, tell me of alternatives and better options than those, we are/were left with, BUT be nice. No one is taken more seriously or has a better chance of convincing anyone to anything, because he acts rude. “ (The opposite is even more likely: No one follows the "advice" (orders) of ranting people or those who insult others but by force.)
I think cause this bonus will be live only a short time its not necessary to be balanced the way cb is (quite successfully) trying to achieve with the rest of their ruleset. Criticism is ok. Kudos to Hellois for just trying new things
Thanks for the input! I think discussing alternative rulings could help make this discussion a lot more constructive. I like the idea of giving them Adhesive Launchers since it is a decent ARO option for almost anyone. Thanks to burst one it isn’t affected too much by the bearers BS or skills like fatality. Also being characters, these profiles wouldn’t get access to Adhesive in Hunting Party. But I think this is a good moment to recite the optimization problem: here we keep the simplicity of the rules the same (still a one size fits all), in game balance is better, but compared to the data tracker order I find it hard to argue from the narrative perspective why these people all got a relatively specialized piece of equipment. Farewell present from prison? Still, I really like it as game balance matters a lot to me personally. Extra WIP could also work even though I see it being weird to have a WIP 15 Ariadna character. The deployment advantage I think suffers from the same problem as the free order. Where you place e.g. Xi, Rao or Andromeda isnt that important (especially when deploying Xi or Rao in a link team) compared to the advantage of deploying your LT (Voronin) or primary attack piece (Tarik) last.
The fact is: why those character have been awarded with a bonus order? I mean: they have been retired from duty for interrogation and possible not very friendly torturing. Why once they are proved innocent they are actually stronger/more motivated? Do futuristic isolation cell have a gym? Do interrogation chambers have a training ground? I would actually feel a bit "unwanted". I served correctly and to the best of my effort for years. Now, just for a rumor. I've been tortured. You know what? Mercenary seems more like a good life.
That's because you don't have the indomitable spirit and endless love for Haqqislam that Tarik does! *Captain Haqqislam theme plays, Odalisques sigh dreamily, a Falcon sheds a single tear of manliness*
Or indeed the tireless faith and supreme belief in the Nomad Nation that Kusinagi does! *Ghost in the Shell soundtrack plays, Jaguars sigh Mexican-ly, Robo-sex Falcon AI jizzes everywhere*
Or the relentless hate for the Japanese and desire to slaughter that xi has! *party anthem plays, kuang shi groans painfully, guijia burns Japanese children patriotically*
I have used Agemas of all kinds as ARO pieces (ML in the beginning, then the sniper I skipped straight for Atalanta, then Teucer, then Agema mk12 in Sup Fire, then Agema Sniper). What you suggest is either for Active turn (MSV2 firing from behind smoke) or if you have stacked you ARO pieces so well the enemy has to no option but to spread the fire (in which case, MSV and smoke are not really a factor, those wil be in future orders though... specially against enemy Fireteams). Besides... it's not like "the enemy will fear the agema" what you are saying, but that "three ODD BS-12+ angry dudes in your face" with the added "some random guy far back" are a fearsome piece. I have a more economic option: MK4 proxy HRL with a warcor giving some extra support. Short version: the enemy shooter will ignore the Myrmidon and shoot to death the Agema trying to ARO. Unless it's a Sup Fire mk12 Agema, those are the toughest (but demand you to moe them forward). We shall see how she fares, but Tarik and Kusanagi are still the #1st and #2nd winners (Tarik Vanilla Haqq with 12 orders, essentially...). And Andromeda's weaknesess are still there: S4, basic IL movement, closest to the enemy, mimetism... And a big, fat bullseye on her that says "Datatracker + 2 orders" on her head. It's called "game balance". The reason, you know, why Aleph gets Netrods (few bodies of the table, because the troops are of quality) while Haqquislam, Nomads and Ariadna can place 20 models on the table and still be effective. Giving them something that is a multiplier will not keep in game balance, and an extra order IS a multiplier. You mean, people are not allowed to grab gear depending on the mission? So a beat cop will go his whole career carrying only a single revolver? Well, on a more serious note: look the Hunting Party mission (ADL and stun pistols for everybody) or the missions with Panoplies (one of which states that specialists can change their result for D-Charges... even if those are not in the list. Not to mention TAGs earning bikes! -solved, the TAG gains only the MOV of the bike-). Giving them an extra weapon is still better than giving them some sort of caffeine overdose XD Well, not really, since they HAVE to be the Datatracker to get access to that advantage, so they essentially gain "one singular, specific level of Strategos". Voronin is f*cked no matter what, frankly, since he is a very very weak link that is also very attractive to the enemy and rather squishy. For the others, well, the difference is that you can leave the Fireteam lacking 2 members and deploy Rao or Kusanagi when they better suit you (and the enemy might have though it was a Haris, or a not complete fireteam... or that you were storing a really expensive piece), or even a "surprise!" if it was a Haris (Kusanagi + custodier + custodier/healer... you only placed the Custodier on the table). Also, a less impressive bonus weights less on the "opportunity cost" table of a player's mind, or in other words, the players might feel less compelled to use those datatrackers. Well, I would surely love Haqquislam if I were to be turned into a Captain America spin off (with guns instead of a shield!) always able to command the Odalisques! First: Combi or BSG or SMG or Flash Pulse on a BS 12/WP13 platform that moves 4-4 (or 10-10) Vs BS13 Spitfire/MULTI (but you will use the Spitfire 99% of the time) with mov 6-4 (15-10) and superjump... Superior firepower means better defense. Second: S5 is a 40mm base with "human" height (S3 on the base, S2 on the height). S4 is a 55mm base, and lower height than S2. Considering how BOTH can go Prone, Tarik can hide more easily. Third: movility, Tarik moves 30-50 cm in 2 orders, and can jump as a short order, while Andromeda moves 20-40 cm in two orders and if jumps is an entire order. Sure, Tarik costs about twice. But he kills better than Andromeda, and she only has the advantage in missions where being a specialist is needed for the Datatracker. Or hid it and make it survive, of course.
Are you sure that S5 is the same height as S2? My templates look to be a different height and the wiki shows them as being differen (45mm vs 40mm). I wasn’t comparing Tarik and Andromeda as units. The assertation was made on this thread that Andromeda’s problem was that she was S4. If that was really her issue then it that should follow that other large models sould also be subpar due to their size.
S5 is easier to hide than S4, and Tarik can overcome being seen by often just shooting whatever sees him, he's a top level combat piece anyway.
Fallacy fallacy. On the topic of andromeda, this didnt fix her problems. She's too expensive to be a cheerleader, she lacks focus for a mid cost model, and she doesnt have the stats to count as a rambo. Shed be miles better costing more but having camo+fo instead of just the worst bits of camo and fo. Even with an extra order no questions asked shes still a LI with no distinct features that costs too much. Id not take her if she got 5 extra dt orders, because she hands the dt kill to the enemy in a gift basket because shes horrid at range and doesnt do cover well. Literally any role you can think of for her is done better by either a myrm(officer/named), penny, a naga/dasyu, hell I can't think of any model that the dt order would be worse on.
Argument from fallacy is the formal fallacy of analyzing an argument and inferring that, since it contains a fallacy, its conclusion must be false. Simply put his arguments where more convincing. However that is really not all that important unless you are keeping score. As for backdoor I understand why they went ahead and pushed forward as opposed to just dropping it. Andromeda's issue with me is just her lack of focus. I just don't see a situation where she is the model I want to use even with a free order. I do think looking at the army's as a whole and this as a sort of micro balance might have some merit ie Aleph gets nothing so no improvement. Haq gets solid bump and so on.... my issue with this is I am pretty sure the devs are just winging it lol. I think this is almost all narrative driven without any crunch work being done here. I could easily be wrong... maybe Haq needed a boost and they do have more tournament data then the rest of us. I would kill for some communication on if this was meant only as a fun little temporary event or a small balance tweek but communication has not been one of CB's strong points.
I know what it is, although it appears you don't understand what it is, despite the fact that you're quoting it from a wiki. "The Earth is round, the scientists says so!" This is a terrible argument, as it's an appeal to authority. However, if I were to conclude the Earth is flat because the round Earth argument had a fallacy then I'd be guilty of fallacy fallacy. This still doesn't change the fact that the argument in of itself was terrible and unconvincing. This is why terms like "right for the wrong reasons" exist, if an ancient civilisation claimed the Earth was round because it's the Eye of a giant holy cow, they'd be right for entirely wrong reasons. The reason why I ask Kir if he was unable to read was because in the box he was quoting me from, I laid out his Triumph's main claim, which is that he didn't see play in Vanilla. A statement so blatantly false that it doesn't even really need to be refuted, as extraordinary claims made without evidence can be rejected without evidence. The reason why I was mocking your statement of "better" arguments, was because arguments from fallacies are by definition terrible arguments. Hence the reason I lists the absurd amounts fallacies that came from his drivel posts and that was only from his most recent reply. You could only accuse me comitting fallacy fallacy if I listed those fallacies, in my arguments against him, and told him he was wrong due to those fallacies alone, which I literally never did.
