ARO vs smoke grenade through 0-vis zone

Do me a favour, because this came up not too recently, and do a search for Target in the rulebook. That's what I did. Note down how many times and where it speaks of "Main Target" and when it talks of just "target". This might not be sufficiently spelled out for your liking, but the rules does very much treat being affected by an attack and being a target as synonymous.

I'm having doubts. I think the rules are meant to function like what was intended in N3 in case of smoke, and that would be being able to crit against all opponents, but as I'm re-parsing the N4 rules it seems like you can only roll a critical with smoke grenades if you're actually targeting an opponent's trooper with the smoke grenade.
Basically; toss it in front of Angus and you can't crit (in a way that matters), toss it on Angus and you can crit, but only versus Angus and not anyone else.

Again, I'm sure this isn't intended and I might be missing something, the rules do have a tendency to put stuff in several places.

 

I'm not sure what that search would be supposed to achieve? The relevant rules are spelled out explicitly. Circular Template speaks about a Main Target, but that's relevant when a Trooper is a target. What's the "Main Target" of the Smoke Grenade? An area of the table. I disagree with the last part of your last sentence. It isn't spelled out enough, that's true, but from what is spelled enough, there's one and only one target of the Smoke grenade, an area of the table. Like I said before, if that was a normal Grenade, the situation would be different.

Also, I did not get a reply to the White Noise question.

 

So, I was arguing from a similar standpoint in a different thread sometime in the last several weeks, and was persuaded that "Target: A model designated as a Target or Main Target by an attack, or a model affected by a template" is the right interpretation of "Target" (and I think it ought to be phrased more or less that way in the dang Glossary).

Part of what persuaded me was doing a search for "target" and variations on "affect" in the PDF rulebook. In particular, the last bullet of the Direct Template Weapon Effects (p. 49) is worded this way, which I found persuasive that the problem is the authors using inconsistent terminology, rather than the rule actually being intended that "affected trooper =/= target." Note the relationship established by the underlined phrases:

Another good place to see this in action is the Example on p. 50:

Note that it doesn't say "affecting different Main Targets" here.

The fact that these things aren't actually spelled out unequivocally using clear, unambiguous, consistent wording in the game rules bugs me, but the intent behind the rules does look like all troopers and other game elements under a template/affected by a template are in fact meant to qualify as "targets" for the purpose of other rules that specify being a target as a prerequisite for something.

You're right, and also every time "it worked this way in N3" comes up to explain a rules interaction, a new player's guardian angel commits remorseful seppuku.

I'm beginning to think we really need a website that acts as a companion to the rules wiki to explain to new players how the rules work in practice, particularly the kinds of interactions that come up in the Rules forum. Having to spend hours and hours trawling forum threads to understand how we're supposed to play the rules is an excruciating exercise and I would bet real money that it's turned off at least a few prospective players. (I know at least one personally. Be careful about taking this bet.)

 

@wes-o-matic
That's why I said if that was a normal Grenade, I'd agree. A Smoke grenade and I disagree. A Smoke grenade does not affect or target anyone at all. It targets an area of the table and creates a Zero Vis Zone on it. That's it.

If the Zone happens to remove your LOF to the target, the "zone creation roll" (happens to be a BS Attack because you throw a grenade) is an FtF when it's used as a "smoke dodge ARO". However, on Active turn, the Smoke should not provoke return fire.

And same for a White Noise zone vs MSV troopers. The sheer fact that an area of the table removes LOS from a Trooper does not "affect" them like an E/M grenade or an EXP missile would. Doesn't Wound them, doesn't put States on them. It changes the way that area of the table is treated and played. That's external to the Trooper who isn't the target of the Smoke grenade in the first place and doesn't become one like it would with an explosive, E/M or other type of such template.

Smoke / White Noise / Eclipse is just different than the other weapon circular templates.

 

In theory, that already exists in the form of FAQs, rule threads marked "SOLVED" by CB, and now stickied Provisional Rulings posts by ijw.

I'm not sure they even use the "SOLVED" marker anymore, but the Provisional Rulings posts were extremely helpful. Anyway, I too would like to see more resources put into answering questions, but I'd rather see it done through the existing system rather than introducing a fourth place to look for clear answers. More Provisional Rulings would be very welcome, but I think it's pretty reasonable to hope that the first N4 FAQ will bring the rules a lot closer to where we want them to be.

(That being said, if I had a magic wand, my solution would be: ditch the rulebook, rules pdf, faqs, and rulings entirely. Keep the wiki as the only rules document, and whenever the rules are clarified or errataed, simply update the wiki accordingly).

 

@Mahtamori that's what I get for checking all the places that describes how Critical Rolls function and not checking Impact Templates. I should know better :)

Honestly, yeah. I'd go the Main Target is the point on the ground unless you use the Targetless trait.

 

So the rules Book / PDF has a role - it's the document you read when you learn the rules.

So FAQs have a role - they're the change log you can read to find out what's changed / been clarified.

But yes, use each document for its purpose and update / format them appropriately.

Like, for instance (and I use it as an example purely because it is fresh in my mind), there's no reason that the section on how Critical Rolls work shouldn't be on a single page that is linked to from various places within the wiki.

As it is, you need to read 3 different pages on the wiki to understand what happens when you roll a Critical with an Impact Template:

https://infinitythewiki.com/Combat_Module_Intro#Criticals
https://infinitythewiki.com/Rolls#Criticals
https://infinitythewiki.com/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Area_of_effect

One of which isn't linked to from the others to nor directly referenced in Impact Templates so it's easy to miss even if you remember it existing.

Simply adding a new line to the "see also" section for Criticals and Impact Templates would help, but the wiki is still limited by the decision to format it the same way as the PDF ( albeit that's probably a reasonable decision given the costs involved in packaging the same information in two different ways).

 

Why not? I see you chuck a grenade of any kind and fire at you in response. If my attack spoils your throw, cool, if not then the grenade goes off, at which point I find out whether it goes asplode or poof-now-smoke-exists-here. The game rules determine the events that create an opportunity for an ARO mechanically, but in terms of the events described by the mechanics, "smoke should not provoke return fire" doesn't seem convincing.

As far as game mechanics go, I think that there's reason to believe that using smoke ammunition in the active turn does in fact provide a valid ARO. Specific rules passages I find convincing:

Three bullets from Smoke Ammunition (p. 72), especially that last one:

The first two could apply to using smoke in active turn after a Move or other action provoked AROs, or could describe an ARO against a Coordinated Order, but they certainly look like they mean to cover the case of a Smoke user throwing/firing smoke and generating AROs thereby.

That last bullet really implies that enemies in the AoE of the template get to declare an ARO in response to the active turn Skill that puts down the template, and goes on to specify that if that ARO is Dodge then it's Normal and not FtF. One of the effects is that if everyone Dodges, the roll to place the smoke becomes a Normal roll and not FtF.

If putting down Smoke doesn't permit an ARO for troopers in the area of effect, how would they declare a Dodge ARO that might result in a FtF with the Smoke user, thus requiring this rule?

The bullets from Eclipse Ammunition, and part of the Important box text afterward:

 

White Noise is weird, but the rule seems designed explicitly to avoid template-related AROs because it says:

That reads to me like the intent is that it's a Normal roll regardless of any AROs—other hacking programs specify FtF or just say "WIP Roll," or are No Roll programs—and the placement at the end of the Order is, like Dodge movement, something that seems intended to be declared and executed at the end of the Order entirely, without affording any ARO to troopers under the template. This is specifically different from the way Smoke and Eclipse attacks are handled.

 

Poor rules written poorly?

I mean, that's my point. The Smoke and Template rules do not make a Trooper in the affected area of the table a target. This snippet from Smoke you quoted does not state a Trooper in that area is affected, it doesn't state he is a target, it just says "if a Trooper who is in the area of effect of Smoke gets to ARO, then it's a Normal roll and not an FtF against the Smoke user".

So it makes several assumptions and inferrences in a row that are not born out by the rest of the rules. Looks like an editing artifact, a lack of editing clean up if you will.

We can't really start inferring that a Trooper CAN ARO when under AoE of Smoke, when all we got to support that assumption is a rule snippet which says something happens IF a Trooper AROs under the AoE.

That's not how rules are supposed to work, it's extremely sloppy. I do realize that sillyness like "interpretations / limitation inferred from fluffy examples are also rules" has been the unfortunate standard in Infinity, but wasn't this edition supposed to do away with silly stuff like that and clean the ruleset up? We should really expect better than this.

 

White Noise is NOT an Impact Template Attack.

It follows VERY different rules. It just uses a template to describe the area it covers.

 

I’m aware, but Nuada mentioned it alongside smoke and eclipse so it seemed reasonable to mention for completeness.

 

okay. i really not want to, but i think i used to.
first of all, i want ask participants of these topic answer three easy questions:
1) Why dodging smoke "BS attack" that "targets" you is not a F-T-F roll?
2) Why "BS Attack" with smoke, that "targeted at" own allies with a template does not canceled?
3) With all respect, why people decided the interaction with a trowing smoke is changed in N4 from how it was in N3?

Most rules comes without changes, if they work well - & this one does not seems exception to me. WORDING changed - to make it more clear & to avoid confusing "smoke dodge", but the interaction on a table seems stay the same.
I remember how hard it was to finaly solve this question in N3 - i think @Mahtamori could easily find all the related topics with @ijw clarification in N3 archives. why now we should trow it away & act like it never existed?

By the way - i will wait @ijw or @HellLois clarification to be sure, till that moment i recomend to play it same as it was in N3.

PS bonus question - trowing Speculative Smoke against shooting (if we assume it possible) become a F-T-F roll?

 

Rules reference links:
https://infinitythewiki.com/Smoke_Ammunition

1) Because the Smoke rules say it is not a Face to Face.
"Any enemy in the Area of Effect of the Smoke Template that declares a Dodge ARO will make a Normal Roll, not a Face to Face Roll against the Smoke user."

2) Because the Smoke rules say that attacks that cause 1) no damage AND 2) no states, are not cancelled by affecting allies
"The Area of Effect of a Template can affect Allied Troopers as long as the Template has no Damage Attribute and does not inflict any State."

3) Only someone from the rules team can answer why they changed it, but I am personally of the opinion that the few changes they did were for the better.

Bonus) Nothing is mechanically preventing it from being a Face to Face, however, it is very unlikely to cause one due to when you use Speculative Fire and that MSV users never Face to Face versus smoke.
What we are debating is whether you need to have the opponent be main target or not of a template attack in order for them to be allowed to shoot through smoke or not, and whether the ammo being Smoke alters this at all. So in this case, please read the arguments in this thread to form an opinion.