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Armour Penetrating Kokram: Working with the Guijia+Krit duo (vanilla & IA)

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Weathercock, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    While the blanket TAGtical Awareness adjustment has some mixed results overall (being of controversial cost to light TAGs who may not have wanted it in the first place, and way too much for TAGs that were already potent enough as it was), I think it's pretty unanimously held that it's done nothing but good for our own big orange turtle. I'd wager that he's gone from something mediocre and costly to the point of being unviable to being mediocre and costly to the point of being potentially workable and maybe even dangerous.

    The key here, being, unlocking that potential. And this is where I'd appreciate some collaboration and brainstorming, because I've recently finished retouching my big boy's paintjob for ITS 11 and I want it to see some love on the tabletop (before we continue, can we just take a moment to appreciate how fucking gorgeous this guy is?).

    Personally, I'm not going to talk much about him in IA. I still don't think he's viable there. Maybe if he ends up getting a Duo with the Haidao, but for now, I just don't think the sectorial has enough to offer to support him, and I don't think he lends enough value in firepower in comparison to a kitted out fireteam. Although I am open to suggestions.

    So... vanilla. The question here being, what advantages does the Guijia have that other troopers in YJ don't have, and what other TAGs in general don't have?
    The Guijia's duo with Krit makes it the only heavy TAG in the game that can form a fireteam in a vanilla faction, and the only special fireteam available in a vanilla faction.
    Now, Krit Kokram's automedkit is cancer, and makes him pretty expensive. But poor optimization aside, could we potentially squeeze some valuable utility out of him? After we throw on the requisite EVO repeater, we've got a really expensive collective. As for what it offers:
    -Krit following the Guijia provides a poor-man's MA4, which might net some value out of that shiny new DA CC weapon. Aside from real CC specialists, this suddenly becomes really scary.
    -Krit's suite of E/M weapons provides a layer of tools that can help to cover the Guijia's advance. The E/mauler in particular allowing you to deploy those tools while also moving up the table.
    -Lastly, and most obviously, the ability to have the Guijia carry its personal engineer around the table with it, useful for keeping it patched up while also being able to press a lot of buttons with a premium on order efficiency.

    In effect, he can function a lot like a bigger, scarier Scarface+Cordelia... for double the cost once you include the EVO Pangguling. So where I'd like some input is on listbuilding around this. Do people think this can be viable? How would you implement it?

    I've been playing around with the idea of incorporating Sun Tze into this combination, and my thoughts are mixed. On the one hand, the control over deployment helps to create a strong start, funnelling an extra order into the link is very useful, and the extra command token is very useful for a list that is naturally going to burn through them pretty quickly (I assume you're going to end up disolving and reforming that link quite a bit over the game). But there's also the fact that he doesn't leave you with room for much else.

    In general though, what options do people think might work well with this loadout? I'm swearing by my MSV2 Haidao sniper right now, but beyond that... I'm not sure where to go.
     
    #1 Weathercock, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  2. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    @Weathercock I as well have been thinking about how Guija can work out. Im getting to the point where I have my own understanding of the on tabletop value of units and skills. Its about time. :D

    I get that some profiles are optimized and are best in slot so to speak. But I have a philosophy I use in this game. "Crits happen, a combi rifle is still a combi rifle, and players make mistakes". Im sure this will evolve over time.

    I think the Gujia is a great unit. The Gujias strength is in its mobility (compared to the other options). It has 8 ARM. One weapon that kills things with Dam 16 (now). It also has a Damage 15 heavy flammer that is very mobile and can clear out cammo.

    The last game I played was Show of Force. My Gujia killed a nomad salamndar whith a heavy flamer. It failed its ARM saves until it died. That let me clean up ther rest of the table.

    I want to play well with Sun v2 as well. Its just a matter of play testing for me to see if it can work out.

    The lists will be very tight and little room for error.
    Are you looking for a generic well rounded list or mission specific?
     
    #2 Azuset, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  3. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Im not really sure what synergises well with the Evo other than Jump Troops and Sat lock bots.

    What is the best use of the Evo aside team pro?

    I think that would be a natrual quest first question beacuse an Evo is needed.
     
  4. Reservup

    Reservup Active Member

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    Honestly, I think the best thing going for the Guija in vanilla is the same benefit that all our HI pieces have, 4 Kuang Shi and a Celestial Guard controller for 33/.5. I'd make that your starting point for a list.

    An EVO hacker boosts AD troops, if you're set on taking one a good way to leverage it's benefits is a Tiger Soldier, as well as lots of cheap flash pulse bots that work nicely with Overclock.
     
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  5. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Ok, of the potential synergy with the Evo Hacker and Sensor bots...You can include a Weibing Yaokong, a Son-Bae and a Kan Ren Minelayer(this guy brings sniffers around instead of mines), so you start with the reserve potential(kan ren) of setting up guided Missiles against mid-field Skirmishers you don’t want anywhere near your Guijia, Krokram (Jammers for instance) or if going second masquerading as a scary/Juicy Target (forsaking both the Minelayer and the FD2) to bait your opponent into going into him (Obvious Lt. Options in Vanilla as single Celestial Guard on his own can work, Zhanying Lt, Zhanshi LT, you get the general idea, Weak Doctors, Medics, Hackers), this of course can work quite nicely for Armies with Alpha Strikers who don’t want to eat mines or templates from Guijia+Krit.

    My two Cents, if you can squeeze Sun Tze with this combo and Guijia Duo it’d make for a list I’d love to play.

    I’d prefer Kan ren in this list over ninja because it can potentially bring max Synergy for your Hackers (If Any alongside your EVO)/Remotes while also being on the table granting you his order for more efficiency and his holoechos can help trip mines in the mid field helping clear a path for the guijia.

    If Guided Missiles aren’t your schtick, feel free to use Grenade Launchers/Grenades for your targeted enemies.

    A Rui Shi would be most advised as well since you’ll need some MSV2 since Guijia lacks it and Sunny T brings MSV1 if V.2, since you’ll probably be bringing engineer, Evo Hacker and Remotes a Rui shi is a natural inclusion.


    And Never forget if using Kan ren, you can Imitate any S2 model in the Faction, along with an imitation of their marker state(correct me if I’m wrong I’m not sure of this one)
     
    #5 Gero, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  6. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Sun Tze and witht Duo and the sensor network is doable, but I don't like it.

    Yu Jing──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1 GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (2 | 88) [​IMG] GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39) PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) KǍNRÈN Minelayer Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt, Sniffer / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 27) SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) Boarding Shotgun, 2 Nanopulsers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 60) 4.5 SWC | 299 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    With just the one combat group, everything competes hard for orders, and while it can pull markers out of hiding it may end up being really vulnerable on the defensive.

    Another big concern I feel is the need for hacking deterrents. I worry that a KHD presence would be almost mandatory, although I wouldn't mind some insight there from people who have more experience with TAGs than I do.

    Personally, I'm currently trying to build around Show of Force and COUNTERMEASURES (this one in particular has me eyeing the Duo more than just a solo Guijia, since Krit can accomplish so many objectives as a TAGalong) for an upcoming tourney. I won't be posting any lists I intend on actually running until after the event, just to keep my private info private.
     
  7. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Well, it's 152 pts just to duo them in generic. Half of the list…

    From my point of view I would simply forget about Sun Tze and instead of trying to fit a sensor net like you I would put a lot of chaff to act as a deterrent. As much as I dislike that way to tailor the list I don't think you have many options given the huge expense that duo means.

    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39)
    GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (2 | 88)
    [​IMG] GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. ()
    PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    MAJOR LUNAH Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Your previous list was putting all the eggs on that duo, but if the Guijia falls then you don't have much left able to firefight effectively. Personally I would add the always reliable Rui Shi and support to buff it with assisted fire. The idea is that Rui Shi can keep up the pace with the duo easily, following them to protect from the so undesirable smoke toting dogged warbands. When the duo needs to retreat to a defensive position to get ready for the reactive turn, a buffed Rui Shi in supression fire is something to keep in mind. Of course it can also perform as the camo hunter we love so much. Lunah adds another layer of defense with an unexpected ARO as well as helping to conceal the Dao Ying location during the first moments of the game. Guilang for added support: pushes buttons, is a reliable midfield fighter and with careful use can extend Dao Ying's hacking range. Kuang Shi and Shaolin for smoke and chaff, acting as a deterrent by risking adversary to asymmetrical trades and because is what you throw at very annoying mooks such as Ghazi, Helots and such. Also, a Shaolin with enough orders can ruin adversary's most powerful pieces if he can manage to engage them in CC. Something to keep in mind in crowded closed spaces like objective rooms.

    The only thing I feel missing is a KHD. If you really want it you can try to swap Lunah with a KHD ninja or a KHD Kanren. Probably the later for the shenanigans allowed by the Holo 2 (mind tricks , mine cleaning, etc ). For the moment I would try to stick to the extra long range firepower of her viral sniper rifle and make changes if needed after having experienced a few games.
     
    #7 Janzerker, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  8. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I've started leaning towards something similar to what you've outlined above after a bit of testing last night. As much as I want to give Sun Tze a chance, and as well as his kit gels with the Turtleram duo, he's just way too costly to work practically.

    Concerning the KHD, I'm still unsure about the prospect of working it in. It's risky, but it might be worth the efficiency of relying on the EVO's reboot program while on the defensive.
     
  9. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Correct if I am wrong, Is it order Intensive to keep up the team dou?

    Im guessing the Daoying L2 is profiding buff assistNve for the rest of the army.
     
  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    TeamPro lasts until you turn it off. So it's only one order to activate and then a command token to set up the Fireteam.

    If you go second, you can spend a command token to activate the TeamPro when you deploy the EVO, and then you can set up the Fireteam for free. But in that circumstance, depending on your opponents' hacking presence, you may want to start with a different program active.

    Really though, one huge consideration you're going to have to make is over just how reliant on command tokens you're going to end up being. Between all you'll need to spend to manage EVO programs and fireteam creation and recreation (let's face it, you'll likely end up dissolving the DUO at points, and potentially needing to reform it), as well as potential engineering rerolls, command tokens are going to need to be harshly rationed. As much as I love coordinated orders, you probably wouldn't want to plan around using them much here.
     
    #10 Weathercock, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
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  11. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    Duo kokram guijia──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4 GŪIJIĂ Lieutenant MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (3 | 88) [​IMG] GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1 PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) 6 SWC | 299 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    I was looking at something like this, though I with I could fit more chaff in there.
     
  12. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    So, here's a 235 point "framework" list I've put together.

    The Tag List
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]4
    GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (2 | 88)
    [​IMG] GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. ()
    KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)

    3.5 SWC | 235 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Basically, with this, we offer a second group for the EVO to act through for whenever it needs to activate, saving orders for the Guijia to function with. Putting the Daoying in group 1 allows it to act as a cheerleader in the early game outside of the occasional hacking support with its Lt orders, while still functioning as a late game cleaner/objective grabber if the Guijia goes down.

    65 points remaining isn't huge, but it does give enough room to add a decent variety of secondary or supportive offensive pieces to the list. And the order split should function pretty well for that purpose.

    On the one hand, I dislike always falling back on the standard Daoying Hacker profile as Lt. As much as I love the trooper itself, and that profile specifically (there's something about a good toolbox that sends my heart aflutter, sue me), it can feel like a crutch at times. On the other hand, it's the best Lt. in the game by a pretty huge margin, and our boy, the Guijia, could probably use whatever optimization he can get. Optimizing around Sun Tze might have to be a separate endeavour.
     
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  13. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    @Weathercock why did you title this with "armor penetating"?
     
  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Because the Guijia gets AP ammo on its multi HMG, and "Armour Penetrating Kokram" sounds funny.
     
  15. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    I quit building vanilla lists with Krit and the Guijia for the following reasons:
    - Explaining to my opponent that in this case, it is possible to TeamPro these two together while in every other case it was not is not worth it.
    - The Daoying LT2 is enough to buff bots or AD combat jump, I don't need the EVO for that.
    - There are not enough points for taking the Duo, the EVO, the Daoying AND an NCO trooper to use its LT2 orders.
    - I don't repair the Guijia in the first place since I cannot reroll that. Maybe on its last wound. But you could use the pilot then instead.
     
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  16. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Do you think the Guijia is now worth taking without the Duo then?
     
  17. Reservup

    Reservup Active Member

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    This is obviously just my opinion, but I still don't think the Guija is worth taking.

    I love the Guija, it's an amazing model, and I happily field it because I like playing with a TAG, but not because (in my opinion) it's ever the best tool for the job.

    One extra order doesn't make up for the Guija's, not deficiencies so much as lack of flair.

    Except for missions that require a TAG to score maximum points, there are just other models in the Yu Jing range that perform better than a Guija, and far cheaper to boot.

    The Guija is just a big shiny HMG. It just needs something to make it have a niche, an APHMG for example would make me field it as a premier armour buster!

    Otherwise, when I plan a list, I find that the Guija just isn't a cost-effective way to spend my points unfortunately.

    As far as TAGs go it's acceptably basic. But it's just overshadowed in our faction by other options.
     
  18. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    But it already has a multi HMG, which gives you your choice of AP or shock ammo. Unless you're talking about dialling back the multi HMG into an AP HMG to cut the cost.
     
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  19. Reservup

    Reservup Active Member

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    So it does! I knew that too, I must have my head in the clouds today.

    The Guija is pretty bare bones anyways, so dialling back the cost isn't super necessary I think. Having the option of an explosive ARO is always nice.

    Well, that makes the Guija a bit more appealing, though I still think that there are more effective pieces in the Yu Jing arsenal that take precedence over our TAG.

    But it may just see some more playtime from me now.
     
  20. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    I think he is worth taking. You just have to support him.

    I am enjoying the +1 damage mod, extra move, mobility, and heavy flamer. I do my best to keep him in cover. I also support him with a hacker and or lui AHD or Guilang AHD. There is no tougher more mobile unit than the Guija in Yu Jing. Sure you can get cheaper guns but they dont move 6-4 and have AP with armor 11 in cover.

    Granted I playing players my level of skill. I won my last 3 games with a Guija. If I go second I try to put him in total cover and make sure repeaters are around. Ninja khd waiting around too. I just setup to make if as difficult as possible for some on to come get him first turn. I even had shit krit in a dou with him. Never had to use him.

    He has fire damage thats damge 15 on a 10.5 inch template. What over unit in Yu ching has that? Fire procs are amazing.

    I think he is worth it if you play to his strenghts.