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Ariadna in N4

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. FreezeZ

    FreezeZ Well-Known Member

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    They doesn't need camo but their SWC cost is very high. They just slapped +1BS and minelayer. S3 and lighter weapons would be godsend for them.
     
  2. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    With camaleonic fur if we consider the books.
    Anyway there is room to make something cool with them.

    I would like them to be as well designed and fun to play as the rudra. (Not a copy, just something unique)
    After all kuryers are supposed the represent the technological/industrial edge of tak over the rest of ariadna.
     
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  3. cazboab

    cazboab O12 prisoner 627

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    Muls could actually play a bigger part in merovingia.
    Low on manpower? Drones. Give them a specialist Mul controller(possibly even with a Jackie Earl Halley face on the mini), higher AVA, possibly make them linkable, stick an SMG+DEP on the TR bot in place of the uragan.

    Make the drone wrangler (Vacher? Bouvier?) hackable due to the bought-in tech that makes it work.

    And/or a bigger Mul with arm 7+, some highly offensive weapons, but it's G-sync or servant to the controller meaning that essentially becomes scenery without them.
     
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  4. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    So far, the changes I have seen seem to generally benefit heavy armored units. With the change to the crits mechanic, heavy armor is much more important and with HI getting what appears to be 6-2 MOV, they also get a speed buff.

    Do you think that CB acknowledges that order spam lists have an advantage and they are trying to rebalance things towards heavies? I don’t necessarily disagree if that’s what they are trying to do.

    Next, I know my lists generally favor the shotgun. I’ve found it to almost always be worth the extra points and it features heavily in my lists. I view the changes to the shotgun as more of a lateral move than a nerf. I will miss being able to throw a template down range.... That said, I wonder if there will be any pricing change on shotguns.
     
  5. saint

    saint Charming, but irrational

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    I'm in favor of FRRM becoming the most technologically advanced faction in Ariadna they've always been the most forward thinking and Nomads have shown that they're a viable force multiplier. So long as the infantry is still light and has deployment shenanigans, always loved the "deployment zone optional" lists they could run.
     
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  6. Callum

    Callum Member

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    This conversation highlights something I have been meaning to post about for ages which is the issue that Ariadna has in the sectorial design space is very confused and this has only been made worse by TAK.

    TAK is an over optimised fan boys wet dream of a faction combining the best hits of under-priced skills, optimised profile, the best of plug and play fireteams, and the OG N1 super stars of vanilla Adriana all rolled into a single heinous abomination. It eclipses the design space of all other Ariadna factions with it possessing better camo then USARF, more T2 then Caledonia and better light troops then FRRM (admittedly not a feat given the age of the sectorial)

    The issue is really that their defining fluff characteristic is "They're the best at everything". This is in turn used to justify the addition of any and all units, skills and link teams they need. When the sectorial was released they gained the cheapest (and arguably best) regular camo unit in the game and entirely new weapons were invented purely so they wouldn't lack for any tools in ITS nor would the cost of its elite units keep its model count low.

    While this is me venting a lot about TAK, even between the remaining sectorials there is significant overlap in unit design and overall design. My favourite example of this is currently USARF is faster and more forward deploying army then the Merovingian Rapid Responce Force.

    As it is easy for me to criticise and harder to create here are a few thoughts as to how Id like to see things changed up to make the sectorials more unique and differentiated. This is aided in the modern design space by sectorial only profiles and even now models. To prevent balance arguments assume all loadout changes are kept to sectorials only with provision they might roll over to Vanilla if it is needed.

    CHA
    Of all the sectorials CHA is the most unique with a very different play style. Now depending on your opinions regarding order spam their list can be a little much and a horde of kilts doesnt exactly scream black ops. To assist in rounding out this sectorial and making them defined by three or four units I feel that a couple of its units could do with a spice up. I do want them to keep the wild men with lots of swords and bullets feel though.
    • The Volunteers and Highlanders both could benefit from some availability limits to make other builds of the sectorial more viable and reduce the temptation to simply run single threats fueled by entire order groups of either unit.
    • The Moramer would benefit from being given true two wounds and heavyweight to assist in the ITS issue. This would also help differentiate it form the greys and give it a serious role in both CHA and vanilla.
    • Giving Pavel McMannus would spice up their mid field game and fit in with the other SAS profiles.

    • The Scots Guard could be given a few more non-camoflague profiles (particularly specialist) to flesh them out as a more rounded link. I know people will likely still spam the Volunteers but it would help them be a true list building option
    FRRM
    The oldest and therefore most lacking of the sectorials the French have been all but eclipse thematically by their brethren and could do with a spice up. Additionally they suffer from a frankly lazy conversion from N2 that has left a lot of their most fun units and toys hidden behind ridiculous SWC taxes

    My vision for them is a light force with lots of deployment skills, dangerous disposable weapon and more cheap defensive camo game that make engaging them dangerous and allow them to fend of heavier force while keeping them light and relying on Moblots and lou garous to advance.
    • The Zouave could stand to lose MD, the SWC on any non heavy weapon profiles and gain FD. This would make them a much more attractive unit and have use as a forward deployed solo elements

    • The Metros could perhaps loose the inferior infiltrating profiles and have limited camo profiles (with or without FD maybe?) to mix up the dz defence game without stepping on other groups toes.

    • The Moblot would benefit from a clean up its many varied profiles with the AP rifle and maybe mimetism being made standard (I do hate mimetism as unit design though). The variety of specialist is fun as is the infiltrating variant. Additional options include adding more and different disposables; flammenspeer, akrylat-kanone etc to give them more punch
    To expand further on the off world technology element they could stand to pick up a few more toys then viral rifles, adhesive launchers and emaulers (which TAK seem to have no shortage of).
    • This could include the addition of a MSV2 profile for one of their units given their lack of smoke. This would very much set them apart from other Ariadna groups and up their defensive capacities

    • Perhaps they could have sensor bots bought from the Nomads or Haq. Even having the only non-antipode sensor units would be something unique for the Briscards or one of the other units.

    • Up-gunned or upgraded mul profiles to represent collaboration with their trading partners.

    • Perhaps they have bought true but cheap HI suits from the Haq, nomads or YJ to make up for their decimated numbers.
    TAK
    This is going to be harsh but TAK really needs to lose some toys to make them feel like something other then an optimised soup. They also need a refining of what their speciality so as to not steal others thunder.

    I see TAK as the elite aggressive force that takes the fight to the enemy but has to contend with the cost of all these elite troops. Also hopefully N4 fixes the cost of mimetism to stop TAK troops stop being stupidly better then their counterparts for so little cost.
    • The Frontoviks could stand to be dropped down to AP rifles to keep the specialness of t2 confined to elite units or caledonians. If the scotts guard or even Vet Kazaks cant field units of t2 guns why can the Fronts?

    • The Strelok and the Scout can be combined into a single elite (Streloks, because it sounds more Russian then scouts) forward deploying ambush camouflaging unit. This makes their camouflage game more focused on elite units that obfuscate their position but are proportionally more expensive and dangerous then the corresponding units in other sectorials. This will also help tone back the 26 camo token TAK lists while still allowing the to carpet with camo markers and mines. This transition would be easy as the only modern scout model is almost visual indistinguishable from the Streloks and would allow for greater variety in weapons loadout.

    • The Spetnatz HMG could use a change because it might as well be the only profile for the unit which indicates a serious imbalance in design.If the sniper had mml2 and the hmg had an x-visor (he has the googles) it would go a long way towards balancing between the profiles, particularly if the sniper swc is cut to 0.5. It might also get people to consider the AD profiles
    USARF

    The USARF currently really doesn't have a clear identity but they have a few options that could be fleshed out further to arrive at one.

    My desire is that USARF embody Mount Zion with it wall and the artillery. The army should consist of big armour, big guns with light skirmisher units spread out in front of it. We would be the sectorial with cheap, but light camo spam.

    Honestly as a two year USARF player I have very few complaints with the sectorial. It is an aggressive and deadly force with the strong units being very good at what they do. I just always feel we are completely inferior competitively to even the French a fact borne out by Carlos’s latest ITS slide. At least with the recent rework some of more glaring competitive deficiencies have been corrected with addition of some more anti-material ccw and the heavyweight change.
    • Marauders unfortunately are too good and significantly out shine the minutemen as the premier CQB assault pieces in the sectorial. Dropping dogged and grabbing a different piece of equipment to bring their cost up to low twenties; maybe veteran would help make minutemen more viable as a unit. I would like for these guys to gain a minelayer profile to reinforce their jungle fighter unit and bulk out our mid-range defences (as soon as the FD2 from ITS goes away).

    • The Minutemen need to have something that make them worth taking then bs13. It simply isn't worth upgrade cost over grunts or even marauders. Between the mixed links (which I hate purely on principle) and the haris profile they are certainly more usable then before. Honestly the easiest and best option is to simply give them No Wound Incapacitate. This makes them as tough as a vet kazak which befits their phys13 and gives them a role as heavy assault pieces. It does however bring them into conflict with the blackjack which Im not sure how to fix. The addition of an msv1 profile or two would also not be amiss for our elite unit.

    • Devil dogs are a unit I used to dislike but have come around on in the last six months. The utility of the dog is amazing but the load outs of the unit are a little lacking. The AP heavy pistol is wasted on the unit and I would love if they’d swap it for a little more synergistic with unit like grenades.

    • I would also really like one more light camo unit to truly make us the masters of camo spam. It would also make our camo game a little less predictable. Not wanting to step on TAKs toes nor simply adding a Hardcase but the marksman rifle Strelok profiles and do provide a blue print for non specialist light unit that packs enough punch to be scary without being another camo hmg unit. I dont want minelayer with ap mines but some home-made cybermines or dare I say an emauler could be fun to add to some profiles to make rushing us with tag or HI slightly less effective.
    These are just my thoughts and no offence is intended to TAK player with the excessive bashing. I would like to hear others thoughts on things that could be tweaked in the sectorials to make them more thematic as forces.
     
  7. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree and here is Why

    Those are my opinions after many years playing, please consider them carefully to see through the design choices. Also it's not my intention to sound harsh I have tried to go straight to the point due the length of the post.
     
    #207 MATRAKA14, Apr 3, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  8. FreezeZ

    FreezeZ Well-Known Member

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    I dont understand why Pavel should be in CHA. He was raised and trained by kazaks. Only thing is his surename.
    I cant say much about other sectorials than TAK so I will stick to it.
    I think that all Ariadna playeres new that TAK will be strong. Strongest units in vanilla were kazaks. And community wasn't that far of in speculations about TAK. From heavy hitters and wildcard veteran to camo spam. TAK doesnt make issues with deisgns spece worse as it doesnt do anything new. While in details they are different, TAK doctrine is not far from Vanilla because your plan A and B will propably use the same unit.
    In my opinion Ariadna as whole suffers from low-tech stamp as both CB and players think that they cant get anything interesting because of that, And than you hear whining about ariadna cammo spam. Well maybe if ariadna got some other options...

    Sorry for rant at the end
    Now deep breath and about changes. I will try not to copy @MATRAKA14 too much
    Frontoviks-T2 ammo to AP. Than change wont bring much to them aside from flavour. And propably it will make them better in N4 as ARM will be bit stronger than in N3 thanks to crit changes.

    Strelok and Scout-they both perform different roles and bring different things to the table. Also scouts have e-mauler since N1.(sadly i lost arm and leg from that model)

    Spetsnaz- they are expensive 1 wound unit without many tricks. Is HMG strong profile? Yes. But they are still 1 wound model that needs to use camo state and his skill to the fullest. It isnt unit that you just push forward. Sniper needs help but I dont really know how to make him better without breaking him. Maybe give him X-visor? But that would make sniper without band rangebands that ignores cover. AD profiles are ok, especially shotgun. One thing I would change is that I would give FO to rifle profile or something that will make him more interesting. D-charges?
     
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  9. SpectralOwl

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    I'd argue quite the opposite; Ariadna's variant "low-tech", subversive rules are some of the most powerful in the game. Natural Born Warrior instead of Martial Arts, exclusive access to Ambush Camo, common Total Immunity on Dogs and hyper-efficient Antipode Sensor options complement spam of Orders, Camo, Smoke and Mines to create easily one of the game's most potent factions. It might wind up suffering in N4 a little if Bostria's statements about Hacking affecting normal units is true, as Ariadna has rock-bottom Hacking defense, but beyond a few updates and balance passes to the older Sectorials Ariadna is mostly fine.

    As for the Spetznaz... the HMG has the same odds to hit a target in cover as an Uhlan, or even a Swiss Guard/Cutter if it uses Surprise Shot. I may be rather biased as both a PanO and MRRF player, but that does seem just a tad strong for something cheaper than an ORC in a faction that's meant to rely on subversion and redundancy, with top access to Smoke and Camo. The Sniper could probably be great as long as it wasn't being immediately compared with the current HMG, so making Marksmanship L2 something unique to the Sniper and adding a special ammo would fix up the internal balance somewhat.
     
  10. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    Worst part is that it's not even "TAK is the best at everything.", it's "TAK has the best of everything. Because reasons."
     
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  11. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    Nah I don't think so, during N2 or some particular ITS seasons with greater focus on specialist missions Vanilla ariadna was quite strong, it was on the upper part of the list of factions probably. But rigth now it's probably in the middle, not weak, not too strong. In my opinion after some tournaments, rigth now shasvastii, Aleph, tohaa, spiral and some occasional vanilla CA, SSO seem to be the ones on top of the rest.

    The main cause of players thinking about ariadna being too strong or having too many markers or orders is the lack of experience playing them or at least real experience against them. A player without experience dealing with markers will probably loose, but any player with enough experience against them will just deal with anything you can throw him most of the time.

    If you see the ariadna profiles with the mentality of any other faction things are not going to make any sense for you.

    The spetsnaz hmg is fine, and has been fine all N3 (It was broken during the month before n3) It was probably made to compensate some nerfs to impetuous troops like dog warriors and other camo changes. The truth is, without them vanilla falls apart. Yes it's an excellent profile, probably one of the best shooters in the game, and it's also located inside the faction without decent hakers, odd, to, MSV2 and 3, TAGs and the list goes on and on.

    Ariadna will always punch higher than their weight class because thats their flavor, you choose the rules of the engagement, you throw your strongest punches and hope the other player is not able to properly stand up again until the end of the game. If that doesn't happen I ensure you things can get complicated really quickly for the ariadna player.
     
  12. SpectralOwl

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    Perhaps a little off-topic, but I am curious about what you mean here. In my admittedly limited experience it seems like the power of the Spetznaz or linked VetKazak prevents the other player from leaving anything out and kills what they do, which lets Antipodes or close-up gunfighters shoot down the table and wreak havoc, while on the defensive it just takes too long to get through all the Camo to do any damage. I would like to know what actually does stymie TAK, because it's certainly not obvious and that perception of it being OP is seemingly quite widespread.
     
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  13. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    personally i feel TAK outside of their heavies (though maybe a -1 to their armor stat) and dogface, their armor shouldn't exceed 1. they have a lot of skills and exclusive weapons to not need it

    USARF could play more towards the being a heavy but slow moving force sectorial with armor scores around 3-5 depending their weight class.

    haven't played with or against FRRM or CHA but maybe to make FRRM stand out being the most mobile (6-2?) along the sectorial with heavy access to forward deployments and skilled AD options.
     
    #213 dhellfox, Apr 4, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
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  14. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    Lets see, usually making a list for TAK you can't have everything under control, depending on the troops chosen you will have holes in your army. Managing the balance of what you can deal with while dealing with those holes is the point of the sectorial. Yes that linked veteran is shinny and powerful but also easy to evade and fragile outside the hmg range band or during the reactive turn. If your rival avoids him you will have 47 points sitting somewhere doing nothing, and moving him while possible, usually becomes a waste of orders or an easy target for your enemy during his turn. Even having several tricks to survive usually they will go down after a well placed burst.
    Also hidden deployment troops with a long range weapon can eat them for breakfast.
    Don't get me wrong veterans are cool profiles but they have to do a lot of work to justify such luxury.

    Antipodes are not the hiper aggressive profile most people think they are, for the most part they are a deterrence to avoid enemy troops near them at the begining of the game. Some people launch them as missiles against an enemy troop across the table, that can lead you to waste a turn moving them safely to just kill an enemy unit or two at best and failing to do so at worst.

    Antipodes are way more useful if they go after troops in the middle of the table at turn 2 or 3 when they are closer and more vulnerable. That's when antipodes can shine. and even then at range they are just a marker unable to shoot back while you discover them.

    They only have a single MSV1, any kind of elite odd troop can become an uphill battle.

    Also usually people complain about camo markers but don't even bother to use a sensor remote. Just one well placed sensor can unveil a direct line of attack to the deployment zone. Additionally the markers are quite easy to read just by paying attention to their deployment. Only scouts have infiltration, only streloks and pavel have FD 2, only tank hunters and vasili have FD1 just with that you can have a proximate idea of what is what. Also instead of discovering everything you should be smart and try to trick the TAK player to waste their hidden troops. Even then most of the times markers will be nothing at all.

    TAK defense is just a wall of deception, but there is always a hole to exploit, you have to manipulate them carefully until you find one and then safely pick them apart. I absolutely understand why unexperienced players can see them as too strong, but I could argue about vanilla ariadna being slightly superior in tournament play and both of them are probably in the middle of the powerlevel list. just a couple of games against them in a tournament is not enough to be able to manage them as rivals but I ensure you with experience you can deal with them as with any other faction (unless you are playing MRRF then everything is better than you, specially that brutal new shasvatii sectorial).

    TAK is a constant balance management, yes you have plenty of firepower but you have a lot of stuff to do with less orders, less board control and less mobility than the rest of ariadna while being almost as fragile.



    Have you even read the army lists? All the TAK profiles are between armor 0 and 2 with the following exceptions:
    The two HI of the sectorial, neither of those two are a problem to deal with by their armor stats.
    The single MI of the sectorial and the character version of the profile, armor 3
    The last two wounds of the dogwarrior a troop unable to take cover bonus. If the armor of a dog warrior is a problem I don't know how much you will struggle against a riflemen in cover.

    Dog warriors are powerful warbands but by no means unbeatable. They work quite well in vanilla with enough orders, but for TAK they feel different, at 29 points with his irregular order they are a considerable investment for a list, if you spend a complete turn moving him across the table throwing smokes and fail to make a considerable amount of damage you not only loose the points to kills ratio but a complete player turn, and that's a luxury you can't take with this sectorial.

    All the dogs have changed considerably between the different editions of infinity and probably they are going to change again for N4 but at it's current state Dog soldiers in TAK are by no means a concern or a source of unbalance.

    Almost all USARF troops have ARM 3 with blackjacks being 5 / 4 I don't see your point.

    At the very least I encourage you to explain the specific reasons of your opinions for each troop instead of pointing at the complete sectorial and saying yeah all those dudes over there should have less armor for reasons.


    Once again it's not my intention to sound harsh but to go to the point.
     
    #214 MATRAKA14, Apr 4, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
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  15. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    “unless you are playing MRRF then everything is better than you, specially that brutal new shasvatii sectorial”

    I recently played (and won) a small tournament using MRRF. It was an escalation and tactical window tourney so the final round I had to make a 400pt 14 model list with MRRF. Also, the final mission was Show of Force, so I had to take the Anaconda. I would argue that this is one of the absolute worst conceivable scenarios. And, the final round was top table, so the other best player, who was using the new Shasvastii Sectorial.

    I ended up winning 9-0 and he only had Doctor worm left on the table.

    All of the to say, MRRF can still hold its own.
     
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  16. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    yes i'm painfully aware of the armor values as i as i tend to make a few new Ariadna lists daily to match whatever concept or whim is running through my head. aside from the ratnik (which needs an overhaul to be more appealing) the 2 and 4 armor values have already a CH: mimetism at minimum.
    the tank hunters are part of the cammo game, usually dug in cover anyway.

    in a vanilla list the only time i wouldn't field a vet kazak over other S3 HI is i'm desperate on cutting points

    might as well have the 'armor tax' to their costs lowered and play more to their theme.

    what part did i mention i had a problem with them or suggest any changes? call it bias coloring my opinion on them but dog-warriors and variants are my fav Ariadna units.

    the consensus seems to be usarf has no meaningful identity so (in the spirit of the alleged increase in armor viability) i was spitballing a double down on a simplified theme as a jump point to separate it from the other nations of dawn.
    CHA is the extreme when it come with the use of wide range of armor values (thanks to their tessium mines) i was thinking usaf would adhear to more focused standardization in their protective gear.

    *hardcases, desperadoes; stay unmodified. foxtrots I'm unsure if their armor should stay at 0 or jump to 2-3 but are slower.
    *grunts, mavericks, marauders and airborne 3 armor
    *minutemen, 4 armor to make it stand out more between marauders and (modified) vet kazaks
    *blackjacks 5.

    if more definition on usaf for minimal effort (and for the sake or being too sleep deprived ATM) why not throw in shock immunity on all usaf 3+ amours. to match cammo shellgame rage. its not like 2 of the profiles already have it anyway

    edit: and/or instead of shock immunity give minutemen marauders fatality L1 to represent a different larger caliber type of standard ammo than the rest of dawn. give them a juggernaut feel! would say grunts as well but that might increase their cost too far.

    night all!
     
    #216 dhellfox, Apr 4, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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  17. FreezeZ

    FreezeZ Well-Known Member

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    So with information that REMs will be able to go prone in N4, we now a bit more about future. But what it means for Aridana? MULs will be able to go prone so maybe new models are coming. Or maybe they will have special rule about that? And TAGs are important part of C1 line so will Ariadna get one?
     
  18. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    i i remember correctly they are kazak company built and air droppable items so they got to have power suspension XD


    since timestamps don't work 1:45
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Well, Ariadna aren't in Code One currently so no need to add a TAG. If they are introduced in year 2/3 then they could always get an alternative (Doggo/Blackjack/Ratnik).

    As for the Muls, I can see them adding an N4 skill or rule to some profiles that prevents the trooper from going prone. Bikes and TAGs are obviously the biggest candidates but Muls, and even the Blackjack and Ratnik, seem likely too.
     
  20. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    I have the theory that Code One Ariadna will be reesculpted MRRF figures and one or two from TAK or USAriadna. And the merovingian tag is the Anaconda, so...

    On the other side, Anaconda's rules not fit Code One, so who know
     
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