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Are submachines guns generally undercosted/overpowered?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jul 27, 2019.

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Are Submachine guns undercosted and/or overpowered?

  1. Yes

    81.1%
  2. No

    18.9%
  1. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    That to me is less difficult. There are small-caliber rounds meant to do maximum damage to unarmored targets (RIP rounds for instance) and I imagine in the future something like that must have been invented in larger calibers for longer delivery platforms
    And AP rounds come in all sizes

    I do believe the DAM of all small arms should be looked into
     
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  2. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Isn't there a huge push for weapons like PDWs and SMGs to use intermediary cartridges?

    What about all the Pistols that use Armour Piercing Cartridges?

    Or what about all the Assault Rifles that use Pistol Cartridges?

    I feel like trying to define weapons by Cartridge is not the best idea.
     
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  3. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    fair enough – I'm coming from a stance that knows pretty much jack-all about guns. just cracking a few jokes along the way.

    DAM is a really tricky mechanic in this game. ARM, by extension, seems useless until someone tries shooting your HI with a pistol in cover.
     
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  4. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    Hmm not as far as I know. Granted I'm just a hobbyist nowadays but I was under the impression that the whole point for those was the ability to load them with small caliber rounds for close quarters

    so, like AP pistols?

    Pistol caliber carbines (not assault rifles, by definition those use intermediate cartridges) are purely hobby weapons, none of that would be used in combat

    That's kind of what is done in the real world
     
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  5. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I mean I'm by no means a gun expert. But my understanding was modern SMGs and PDWs were all moving towards Intermediary cartridges because they helped ease logistics given that most modern rifles also use intermediary cartridges and provided better armour penetration than pistol cartridges.

    Infinity games are also not fought by purely military forces though. We have guys like bounty hunters, criminals, conscripts and otherwise just rowdy dudes running around. I understand that a military might not equip its troops with a rifle like that but I have trouble believing some of the other groups don't just grab whatever they have laying around. Hell the fluff for the Ojotnik is that its a variant of a civilian big game rifle right?

    As for real life classifying by cartridge? I guess? Even in real life we end up with all sorts of random sub categories and ideas. SMGs/PDWs/Carbines/Assault Carbines/Rifles/Battle Rifles/etc. It just feels like a major issue in Infinity to me where categories of weapons are supposed to cover a wide array of manufacturers and even species. Not to mention that most infinity weapons are supposed to be firing Caseless ammo which raises all sorts of other questions about how you would categorize the new ammunition.
     
  6. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    I see what you're getting at, but the fact is that a weapon's classification is intrinsically tied to the ammunition it uses and the purpose it achieves

    For instance: SMGs are still used mainly by LEOs exactly because they do not penetrate and because the small cartridge gives better control while firing to avoid collateral damage. Their small size and low weight also let the people using them move better in tight quarters and not be encumbered while they are performing other duties (such as arresting people) These in Infinity would be your SMGs (shock) and Assault Pistols

    PDWs are an intermediate between an SMG and an assault rifle for people who are not quite as concerned with collateral (and they tend to use larger cartridges) and marketed toward those whose primary role is not combat. I guess Infinity SMGs would also be appropriate here, but more of the AP version

    Assault rifles are easy to understand. Select fire, intermediate cartridge (mass production like 223) and full size. This would be Infinity Rifles and Combi-Rifles

    A gun that is the dimensions of a rifle but shoots a pistol cartridge would serve no purpose other than saving money at the range, and anyone who would buy one of these definitely bought a real gun before that. Anyone who needs a rifle and has one laying around don't just have a plinker, but at the very least a solid hunting gun (like an ojotnik)
     
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  7. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Would dropping the assault pistol and SMG to damage 11 be too crippling? The point of those weapons feels like their Burst and then they would be firing pistol calibers.
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Probably not, but it would disrupt the current paradigm of using them to make profiles overpowered.
     
  9. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    definitely not. Assault pistol maybe, just because its often given to models as a side-arm and would probably make their profile a little wonky – but not SMG.

    if we're going by current points it would make them cheaper - and thus making them stronger.
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    if it's select-fire shooting an intermediate cartridge like 5.56NATO or 7.62x39, that's an assault rifle by definition, no matter how long the weapon is. If you are going to ask about various 'pistols' sold in the US that look like a rifle with a short barrel and no buttstock, that is simply a legal exploit in the US civilian markets.

    A submachine gun was originally any full-auto-only or select-fire weapon that fired ammunition less powerful than standard rifle/machine gun ammunition. This has since been amended to specify pistol caliber ammunition, with the introduction of assault rifles. If it doesn't have a 'fun switch' (selector), it's only a pistol caliber carbine, and those are mostly range toys, barring the old lever-action cowboy guns.

    .30Carbine is in a kinda strange place, historically. The US Army wanted a weapon with more reach than a pistol, for use by troops that wouldn't be carrying the standard M1 Garand rifle, like drivers, artillery crew, etc. We would call that role a PDW today. But the original design spec for the M1 Carbine also included select fire, it just wasn't included in the first production runs due to reliability issues and getting a working weapon out NOW was more important than meeting all the specs later. The US Army even wanted a 300yard effective range for the Carbine, just like the Germans were specifying for the StG44. So arguably, the M1 Carbine, or rather what was issued as the M2 Carbine, is one of the first assault rifles. The M1 Carbine and what became the StG44 programs were both started about the same time, in 1938.

    Modern PDWs are really light cartridges. The FN P90 (everyone at StarGate HQ's favorite weapon) shoots a 5.7x28mm round. It is roughly half the weight of a 5.56NATO bullet at 2/3rds the velocity. This is on par with the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire cartridge. The other major PDW competitor, the HK MP7, shoots a 4.6x30mm round, also roughly half the weight of a 5.56NATO at 2/3rds the velocity. While they will punch a standard NATO armor target (and a 9mm or .45ACP will not), I am not willing to accept the lethality claims of either 5.7 or 4.6.
     
  11. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    that sounds perfect to me
     
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  12. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    The Assault Pistol is basically a modern PDW in fluff terms. It's just a small rifle round it fires, apparently.

    But how about this for a dumb idea: Light AP, or AP Minus, or whatever.

    It'd work as 'reduce target ARM by half or by 2, whichever is smaller. That way it works like regular AP against up to ARM5, but at ARM6, it's marginally less effective. Even less against 7, poor against 8, practically bouncing off 9 and 10. This makes heavy armoured units less vulnerable to the Skubmachine Gun, but keeps them viable versus lighter targets.
     
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I assume that the Assault Pistol and SMGs in Infinity are much more like the FN 5.7mm and the 6.5mm used by the MP7, firing a small rifle-like cartridge at high velocity that yaws, tumbles and fragments. Which makes you think shock, right? But 5.56 is designed to do the same... There's nothing specifically extra lethal about those rounds compared to the intermediate cartridge. And while they are better at penetrating body armour than say a 9mm, are they better than a 5.56 from an AR-15?

    Really I'd say that SMGs having dam 13 but a shorter good range is fine, but that I'd take away the special ammo types. If it had no special ammo types it'd be costed absolutely fine, with AP it'd probably be fine too. But shock probably I'd get rid of.
     
  14. Jumara

    Jumara New Member

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    I would like to see the SMG loadouts more as a trade of for other equipment then a straight up better profile. As they are I will never pick a Combi Rifle Authorized Bounty Hunter for 16pts over one with SMG and AKRYLAT-KANNONE for 12pts. wtf not only is the smg better in the closerange game, I got a nice longrange ARO that really hurts AND it costs 4less pts?
    And that isn't a profile that starts closer to the enemy,

    I do think dropping the special ammo on most SMG is the thing we need and give some special profiles a light multi or the prefix ammo in the same way as there are AP HMGs and normal HMGs in this game.
    We can keep the cost as is for most profiles and get some profiles the special toys with a slight cost increase.
    Also I can see the Rangeband crippled on the 24+ to not be able to hit at all and switching the -6 to 16/24. Emphasising on the short range of this weapon.
     
  15. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    When submachine appears the maximun range band was 60cm (24inches) same as light shotgun and the penalty was too -6 and only AP anmuntion. When I understan the change in anmunition, I don't with the range bands. Now not only it has better odds in long range than a shotgund, the cost is less too. In mods and range bands is where I don't understan why the smg is cheaper than a shotgun.
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that is a really good point!
     
  17. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    Aleph Toolbox's n2 tool claims shock on the Thorakitai smg was Shock, but the wikis earliest versions for the smg page say AP and that it's n2 content. Guess it's a mistake on that older fan toolset.
     
  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's listed as Shock in Campaign: Paradiso, which is where the SMG originates.

    Edit: the +3 range went out to 16" though.
     
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  19. Anansi

    Anansi Achilles' Thigh Oiler

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    Drop the shock and the armor penetration from the small machine gun and it's a perfectly balanced weapon. The range band is perfect, the burst is alright, but it's the addition of utility that the various ammo types offer that push it into stupid territory. Why the hell does a small machine gun with SPACE 9mm rounds have more armor penetration than a heavy machine gun? Why is it more deadly?

    It just doesn't make a lick of sense.

    And why the hell is the combi-rifle so expensive? I have never in any game gone out of my way to pay for one of those damn things. It's not the sort of weapon you shell out on a premium. It doesn't have heavy damage, its burst is shit, and most combat takes place in the 16-24 inch range band. The weapon is ill suited for a Rambo and too expensive an ARO piece. The poor combi-rifle doesn't deserve this shabby treatment. Just cut its price by two to three points, Corvus.

    Give the thing some love.
     
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  20. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    Combi Rifle got a lot better from N2 to N3 thanks to the general rebalancig of a lot of weapon. I think that the profile of Combi it's ok for rapresenting the basic weapon. The problem are weapon like the SMG that cost less and are better.
     
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