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Are submachines guns generally undercosted/overpowered?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jul 27, 2019.

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Are Submachine guns undercosted and/or overpowered?

  1. Yes

    81.1%
  2. No

    18.9%
  1. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Yes, of course, the facts. how could I forget? you don't think your whole argument of "Cheaper option is almost always better" that you're applying to the SMG would also work in this case? Both are a specialist profile that allow you to interact with objectives but one does it for a point and the other 5.

    Literally nobody said this. This is something you actually came up with in your own mind. Just because something isn't optimized doesn't mean it's terrible?
     
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  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point; a FO profile would be even cheaper (but only 2 points cheaper, a KHD is 3 points not 5), and it would also be a very good profile because the base profile is solid. But I'm talking not only about being cheaper but also about the synergies.

    In this case KHD cover the weakness of not having a marker state (he can enter in that state to protect himself without having to rely in a roof or use that state to move around the midfield) and give him the posibility to close the gap; it's true Cybermask isn't as good as CAMO, but it may be the difference between being able to do something (which include the ability to mov-mov, avoid long range AROs or to set up a surprise shot in the face with AP or Shock ammo in addition to MSV1) or being just an area denial tool.
    The FO would had their advantages: he wouldn't be vulnerable to enemy Hackers (but it would deny him the ability to hunt them if there is nearby repeaters); in the case you don't want to use supressive fire, he would have access to some long range AROs and it would be a bit cheaper. But in this case the KHD synergices better with the SMG while still keep the profile in a good range.

    For example, let's imagine a cutter ends his turn near of him and let's ignore the Mad traps.
    Face to Face Roll
    Custom Unit - Submachine Gun vs. Cutters - MULTI HMG
    Active Player
    48.29% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Cutters (2 STR)
    11.22% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Cutters (1 STR)
    0.97% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Cutters (Unconscious)

    Failures
    42.80% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    8.91% Cutters inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)

    Not bad for a 21 points model; future attacks would keep the same odds because surprise shot and mimetism doesn't stack.

    I didn't think the /s at the end of that phrase was necesary...
     
  3. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    Of course you would ignore the Mad Traps, the do not go off in the reactive turn.

    Your example is also predicated on the Cutter player making the worst choice in all of their decisions.

    This is not to say that the Gangbuster is not good, but having to use a full order and pass a WIP check in order to get a marker state makes it far more vulnerable than any marker state unit, and getting it into a position to leverage its SMG is going to be difficult or require your opponent making some egregious mistakes.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They stack.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Surprise_Shot
    This -3 MOD is added to other MODs caused by Camouflage and Hiding, Range, Cover, etc.
    It's a good thing, then, that all of the Gangbuster's profiles are so cheap. I'm going to enjoy playing this unit to the fullest of its AVA, but I'll hold off judgement whether it's too optimised or not until I see all profiles and can put them through a few test games. It might end up like Ryuken-9 - integral to the sectorial, but honestly most often not what gets the job done.
     
  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    They won't go off, my point was more that a well used Mad Traps are a good reason for the cutter to avoid that path, but that part isn't relevant anyway.
    My example is the gangbuster positioning himself to get the most advantage in the FtF thanks to cybermask if given the oportunity. How many other speialists area denial models that cost 21 point or less could do the same?
    Any other state require a full order to get the marker state, cybermask rely on a roll but the potential utility is there. Also this game is played around objetives and the gangbuster have infiltration, enemies won't be that far. And with mimetism and MSV1 he can also risk to FtF into the +0 rangeband versus most targets if needed.

    My point is the versatility of a 21 point specialist model that can deploy right next to an objetive and still be a big threat when given the oportunity thanks to a good base profile plus the SMG.

    Both impersonation and mimetism have the NFB... AFAIK you cannot use both in the same order (surprise shot from a CAMO state would benefice from mimetism tho).

    That's fair, let's wait to see the whole faction in action. But for a dude that is suposed to be a tough excriminal I'd had expected an higher PH, CC and Courage minimum (for both fit the lore and increase the points)...
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    First off, Camo and Mimetism aren't the same skills. You can't use both in the same order.
    Second, Gangbuster doesn't have Impersonation, they use Cybermask to enter the state.
    Third, I do think we've established by now that a state doesn't need to have an active skill to use it. For example, a Gangbuster can be Isolated in the same order they enter Impersonation state, rendering the skill inaccessible but remain in the state.

    Effectively you aren't using Cybermask in the same order you Surprise Shoot someone.

    Okay. Game stats tend to skew perspectives a lot and I'd say a lot of the numbers are there to make the game a game and wouldn't adequately illustrate the difference. I'd say Gangbusters have adequate stats to qualify for special forces, and that's pretty impressive for someone with criminal background as training (school of hard knocks is pretty bad at producing quality students, let's just say).
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Depends. Some gangs irl have their members enlist in the military for training before heading back home to put those skills in use for the gang. That's basically what the Druze do in-setting.
     
  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Gangbusters are trained law enforcement officers, with experience in long term undercover assignments, not criminals.
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Their fluff says they're sometimes recruited from criminal pasts.
     
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  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    I politely suggest re-reading Cybermask, and the FAQ that specifically covers combining Cybermask and other NFB abilities...
     
  11. mazzacheammazza

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    The submachine gun are wrong. They do spoil the fun in the game:

    • They ruin immersion. How is possible my Tag, moving around the field, have to worry more by a little puny guy with a small SMG in suppressive fire than one big HI equipped with HMG (in suppressive fire too)?
    • Ruin list building. If the SMG option is the best option, why you have the other option to start with? When I'm listing and I have a SMG profile or the "other option", I rarely find interesting the "other" profile. In general, you NEVER buy the SMG guy for the SMG: you are interested by the overall list of skill and equipment. And since SMG drop price, make the profile with SMG dan sexy. The irony is the smg isn't that bad weapon, you feel like you are stealing candy to babies!

    Even if some profile look good and worthy with the new SMG sheaningas, I rather have a more overall balanced game with a bit of useless profile, than a game full of useless profile, since the SMG option trump a ton of options.

    There are a ton of possible fixes, but i think the one with minor impact should be the best one; and IMHO the one with less side effect is a massive nerf to SMG. My fav one is SMG = a better pistol: B2 DAM 13 weapon, pistol ranges.... aaaah now sound as cheap as it price hint toward! :D

    This will avoid to re-do a ton of profile: the SMG guy is cheap because he have a crap, cheap weapon. Wanna a good weapon? Look to other stuff. I think the SMG will still be popular, since in a lot fo cases you choose the SMG guy hoping to not use the gun at all, but least when you NEED the gun you remeber why it is so cheap!

    Some profile will need a tweak, because are the few ones who actually rely on SMG in game, but are SO few that is worth the pain to change them.
     
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  12. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that an "almost-heavy" pistol?

    I think that the closest we have to a consensus here is that it feels weird to be able to wreck TAGs with a SMG (even if it's a very advanced one). I'd do a couple of things:
    1- Create a new weapon: the Multi SMG. It would be exactly the same as the current SMG, but costly.
    2- Nerf SMG from damage 13 to 12, and remove the AP trait.

    That way, you can keep the cheap SMG for profiles where it's necessary and useful, but keep those profiles in check as they wouldn't have a so powerful weapon.
     
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  13. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    A lot of people already said it pretty well. They use the submachine gun to make profiles that would be too expensive with a combi affordable. The problem arises from that gun also being really good and for such a cheap price maybe it should be split into a multi SMG and a normal one with normal ammunition. I wouldn't want it to rise in price because some profiles like the Malignos really need that discount. Of course they could just address that Combi Rifles are way overprized instead but I'm not getting my hopes up.
     
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  14. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    Damn if I had reloaded the page I could have saved a comment. That pretty much nails it ;)
     
  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Kappa HD/SMG profile is probably where that kind of profile should be, cost wise (HDs probably being a bit too expensive and SMGs being a bit too weak). But I think that the SMG is a useful cost for making profiles. If it was just AP that'd be a good solution.
     
  16. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I wrote that too fast and mixed things but my point is clear. If you gain surprise shot thanks to CAMO, then you can benefice at the same time from the surprise shot and the -3 from CAMO. But you can't benefice from surprise shot from impersonation and -3 for CAMO because both have the NFB label.
    Both impersonation and Cybermask have the NFB label, irrelevant.
    The link between skills and states is poorly defined in the rules, but as ijw said, the FAQs make clear the intended functionality.

    Yep, but looking at his PH I imagine a donut eater being sent to infiltrate in a gang...
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    That's the PH of any standard LI, though. OS are also PH10.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I imagine a "donut eater" to have a PH significantly worse than a Designated Target. PH 10 is the PH of a regular soldier who gets to do marching or running exercises before each meal or of the hipster who spends their lunch at the gym and actually achieves Beach Bod each year.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Right. So it seems the Limited Camo forum answer (which is what I was remembering) is now dead and buried and we're back to Caterans and Lunah not being able to benefit from both Surprise Shot and Mimetism in the same order?
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Apart from the text in Limited Camouflage...