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Are submachines guns generally undercosted/overpowered?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jul 27, 2019.

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Are Submachine guns undercosted and/or overpowered?

  1. Yes

    81.1%
  2. No

    18.9%
  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    *wets a finger and sticks it into the air*
    Same price as a Boarding Shotgun: Multi SMG (Light Multi with DA at B1) - this is the gun they used in GITS
    Same price as now: Regular SMG (Only AP ammo) - use Assault Pistol for the equivalent without special ammo

    Because some units need the fancy SMGs and some units need the cheap-ass ghetto sprayers. Maybe we could also stop giving all units Shock Immunity by reducing the number of shock spray and prays this way?
     
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  2. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    While diminishing the presence of Shock ammo will reduce the niche of Bioimmunity units. I remember times when everyone was saying Bioimmunity was bloat because Shock and Viral were rare and rarer as mandatory ammo. No this is less the case and Bioimmunity is becoming more interesting. I don't mind to remove the ammo from SMGs but beware about what you ask. Touch one thing and the whole food chain is changed.
    As a PanO player, I rarely use this weapon as outside Varunan units, only Krakot and Dart are the units using this weapon that I can field.
    But, as the receiving end, I think too that this weapon is damn effective for its cost. But I don't think that the cost must change. It would make Thorakitai in a really bad place while they are good but far to OP now.
    On the other side, I don't think you need to change assault pistol. Some units rely on this weapon to achieve their task and the weapon has already a lot of downsides to trade its excellent behaviour at close range.
     
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  3. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    SMGs are currently used to make units cheap that do not use guns at all.
    The best example is the normal line infantry hacker, but it could be said for any toolbox specialist that does not depend on shooting.
    [​IMG]2
    NOX Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, Zapper / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    NOX Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Zapper / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)

    Newer armies seem to get these profiles a lot, which puts them ahead of older armies in terms of powerlevel.
    These profiles would be desired even if the SMG would be DAM10, B1.
    The Ninja Killer hacker with Tactical Bow is an example for that.

    Make an experiment and take any specialist from your army and give it a SMG with a 5pt (combi) or 3pt(boarding shotgun) discount. Which profile would you take for the button-click task?

    [​IMG]2
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) SMG, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

    Please have in mind that there are exceptions for everything.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I argue that Bioimmunity is experienced as bloat because there are very few units where it is actually greatly useful against. Take SMGs, for instance (and shockingly this is the topic), you can simply choose to shoot AP and you've negated most of any advantage Bioimmunity gives. Now, I hope people have realised that at least Bioimmunity is very, very cheap.

    However, at the same time, it sort of defeats the purpose of Shock weapons if all new releases come choke full of Shock Immune models (see O-12). I don't quite get why people dis Thorakitai so much, 12 points for a superior DZ guard? Literally the worst thing that can happen to them is that they kill something, and at that point they've already done their job and then some. Thoras are a typical example of a unit that "needs" the cheap SMG, just like all the Heavy/Light Rocket Launchers out there that pairs their weapon with an SMG. (Someone pointed out to me that Patsy has an SMG in a different topic today, btw).

    (Any puns are accidental, but I'm happy to take credit for them)
     
  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I think this is well said. Even units like the Dart and Proxy Mk5: they're not good because of AP/Shock ammo, they're good for other reasons. Shooting's very much a secondary role.
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Except they're advocated as a tool for dealing with tough troops in their army. They fill a needed role for a points discount over a combi.
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    Either nerf the SMG down to match it's points, or raise it's points to match it's abilities.


    If that Guilang example has the current-rules SMG, then hell yes I'd take the SMG hands down. Not because it makes the FO cheaper, but because it's a camo, infiltrating, AP/Shock-spewing killing machine.

    And that illustrates the problem. Giving a hacker or FO an SMG instead of their combi means that they now have a weapon worth shooting, in addition to their button-pushing capabilities.
     
  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    SMG worth much more than it costs, for sure. If CB saved that weapon to adjust problematic profiles, that would be fine; but recently the trend to make more optimiced profiles is making the SMG more noticeable.

    As a recent example of this; check the new Kappa hacker profile with SMG; for just 15 points that profile is the cheapest line infantry hacker while still having WIP 13 and Shock immunity (plus BS12 just in case). The only one that come closer in cost/efficiency is the Nox hacker (which also have an SMG)
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    But that Hacker is "just" a 5 point discount of a base hacker, the worst offender of the new optimiced profiles abusing the SMG is the Gangbuster, KHD with SMG. You have a Mimetism, MSV1 trooper with infiltration (which means absolutely superiority versus 90% of the midfield skirmishers) plus a marker state (safer, a great way to skip the bad range of SMG and surprise attack bonuses) plus shock/AP ammo to shred everything and the KHD to kill hackers. And to round it all 2 MadTraps for great area denial; all of that for 21 points.

    The SMG was fine until CB started to abuse his own formula...
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. GHoooSTS

    GHoooSTS Well-Known Member

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    I would really like to see "The Formula" revised before anything else with the game is changed. I feel like we're well into the dangerous territory of bloat plus power creep, which is among the least sustainable things to happen to any 'living' miniatures game and usually results in a new edition. New editions are notoriously treacherous (look at Warmachine, which has from what I understand basically been torched to a husk by it's last edition rotation), even if they offer improvements to the game. But CB has a hugely powerful tool in Army, and can make revisions to The Formula that basically get pushed to players immediately without a whole-hog edition change, and almost universally. It really seems like the benefits would outweigh the costs here.
     
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  11. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    FWIW the KHD gangbuster is probably going to be less popular than the combi one
     
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  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Some parts of "The Formula" could be slightly twisted (armor, mimetism, wounds, HI...), but a perfect balance is not needed because players aren't using formula, we can't min/max with it. What is needed is keeping the power balance among all the factions; if the SMG is an amazing weapon for its price, then give that weapon to bloated profiles only, not to ultraoptimiced profiles to make them even better!

    We will see, but a 21 points specialist with a marker state and high killing potential in both normal combat and cybercombat isn't something to sniff at.
     
  13. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    See thats the problem – he DOESN'T really have marker state. His marker state is order intensive, slow, and also sort of risky. Especially if he goes second – any 8-point bot is the natural predator to the gangbuster. It can just run up, eat both mad traps cause who cares, and you're free to hack him with through the repeater with whatever camo/super KHD you may have.

    The combi is a better fit for sticking him prone on a rooftop and over-watching when necessary – preferable after the mad traps have been put in standby/spent
     
  14. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Funny. That KHD profile is gonna get smoked first turn if it tries to use that SMG for anything. Non-marker Infiltrating Hackers are extremely vulnerable. As a result, they need to do things like hang back close to their DZ, or deploy on rooftops.

    And when they do that, their SMG's short range becomes a huge drawback. They need to spend a massive amount of orders maneuvering to be relevant. They want to get within 8 inches to gunfight, but they're also afraid to get within 8 inches because of direct templates and enemy hackers.

    That unit is, very clearly, the opposite of overpowered. I think it has some uses, but 4/5 times, I'd rather have a Hunzakut or a Foxtrot. For an army with limited smoke access and (from what we've seen) low order pools, I wouldn't want to spend any orders messing around with Cybermask, then slogging into SMG range.
     
  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Now imagine it's not the gangbuster versus the entire enemy list and that the O-12 player knows how to deploy when playing second.
    The Gangbuster is a Moran with better odds in FtF versus other skirmishers and with a profile that let him to hunt other CAMOs in the midfield; and Morans are considered amazing models.
    Plus these 2 profiles have different roles, do you want to park his ass in a roof? Take the combi profile. Do you want to push buttons and engage in your own termns? Take the KHD profile.

    Well, considering that model have infiltration to start the game near of whatever he want to engage it doesn't sound that order intensive, after that you can position him to use supression fire and use your other models, nothing force you to keep expending order.

    Lol, it's a very optimized profile; clearly the main role of the KHD is button pushing and area control; an Epsilon is a better unit just for shooting; but the SMG enable him to be able to make plays that other button pushers cannot even think off; and all that for 21 points.
     
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  16. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    The Kanren, Moran and Konstantinos have all been in the game for years, and noone cared. Just because someone mashed some of their skills together, I'm not inclined to start caring, and I'm definitely not going to worry about it.
     
  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you, an optimiced and powerful model isn't the end of the world, each faction has their cool toys. That's totally fair.

    The problem arises when every new profile seem suspiciously more optimiced than older ones and some factions or sectorials take years to update. And I do care because that might mean that CB is starting to care more about releasing new OP stuff to make people hype and buy than to keep a balanced and fair playground (the reason I play this game, fair and fun matches). Right now that's happening "within" the rules, just by forcing the formula by taking the most cost/effective choices. But when the formula cannot be min/maxed more they could start to add new powerful abilities/weapons only for a future new faction or to create a new formula and "forget" to update older armies.

    Greed is the perfect way to spoil a game, and I really hope I'm wrong; but the latest releases and fireteam changes have set alarm bells ringing for me.
     
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  18. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    The Moran can be an FO – which is a far superior Mid-field role than a non-marker state hacking device. There's really no contest here – the KHD is a profile you take because you have to, not because you want to. If there was a Gangbuster FO profile with a combi I would take that every single time over the KHD. regardless of SMG. The Gangbuster is far from "optimized"
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Questionable, because KHD gives access to Cybermask, and lets you hang out in marker state while your goats glue things.
     
  20. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the mighty B1 flash pulse or B2 FO (without +3 band)... much better than a potential marker state to get near of the objetive/flank without getting blow or kill an enemy hacker.
    I don't know why do you keep arguing against facts... I can buy some arguments in favor of these new profiles:
    • O-12 is going to have few cheap cheerleaders and need more optimiced profiles than other armies
    • The models aren't important but how they work in the faction.
    • We still have to see how the faction performs in a real game.
    • Maybe we are in a transition phase and all armies will get updated...
    • You think CB is a NGO that will never put money in front of balance.
    • You are going to play O-12 and you think they are perfectly fine.
    But I can't buy these profiles aren't more optimiced, that's obvious.


    But going back to the topic, before we got into how "terrible" the new gangbuster is, we were talking about the SMG. In this case that weapon is used to give a discount to a line hacker from 20 points to 15 or to reduce a button pusher points from 26 to 21 (with the agravant that the button pusher may take advantage of that weapon).
    Those are new uses for the SMG; before those models were given a combi rifle (so they will be more expensive) or a crappy weapon so if you have a cheap button pusher, that will be bad at fighting and the SMG were reserved mainly for bloated profiles or to give a good short range weapon to expensive profiles like a Hulang or a Kriza. But now that it's being used to get extra discount in models that doesn't usually get that discount or to already powerful profiles so it starts to be noticeable.
    So imo, the problem isn't if the SMG is very good for its cost or not (because again, we player have 0 control about what model get that weapon), it's how it's being used in the new profiles.