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Are submachines guns generally undercosted/overpowered?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jul 27, 2019.

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Are Submachine guns undercosted and/or overpowered?

  1. Yes

    81.1%
  2. No

    18.9%
  1. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    Well we are going around in circles. I don't agree with you. And that's fine, we don't agree.

    You seem hell-bent on nerfing SMG'S where as I'm not opposed to it if it's done in conjunction with buffs to pickup slack where it's needed but I'm completely opposed to just knee jerk nerfing something without thorough examination of how that affects other things within the game.

    But yeah we don't agree. So I'll leave this as my last response. I respect that our experience within the game is different but two entrenched views aren't worth digging further into.
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It sounds like you are just against the idea of nerfing them, period. I've already pointed out that some units (Ryuken-9 for example) need to be looked at carefully in the context of this nerf. I don't understand what you're saying is wrong.

    Andromeda will never be a good troop, because CB doesn't understand why she's bad (Or is unwilling to fix it).
     
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  3. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    Now you are just strawmanning. I have said on more than one occasion I'd be fine with them being looked at and even suggested what I'd change. To suggest that I'm "against nerfing them period" is a disingenuous argument. I won't hold up this thread anymore though. If you got any more you need to get off your chest do it in PM.
     
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  4. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    My main problem with SMGs is that they can do too much and cost too little. Their offensive output is roughly like a BSG’s, trading a template for shock and suppressive. The biggest problem is that it costs much less. It either needs to be weakened to reflect its cost or be increased to cost similarly to weapons in the same tier (i.e. BSG)
     
  5. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to take a moment to congratulate @Hecaton on taking a less antagonistic approach with this thread. It's nice to see that change in direction that has been building with your posts.
     
  6. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    Oh you mean that awesome new Team Sirius prerelease model? Yeah she's awesome.
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If she had an auxdog she's be so much more fun.
     
  8. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

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    Small points increase would be fine by me with similar power. Bigger issue is using them as a points crutch like NWI and other things. If the points formula isn't working with current design ideas change the formula don't make excuses for it.
     
  9. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Oh I missed what data was supporting this. Can I get a source?
     
  10. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I don't know anything about win records, but they post stats about popularity at the end of each ITS season.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's from the ITS data crawl that popped up here a few months ago. Essentially the three winningest factions were Vanilla ALEPH, OSS, and Tohaa, in descending order. There's got to be a thread about it here somewhere...
     
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  12. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I think there's one in the PanO forums.


    This is probably the real reason why they get seen a lot on overly optimised profiles due to CB cheating the formula (like FDL2 instead of infiltrate), and why SMGs are being discussed as no one really cares when it's on the Blackjack, Thorakitai or Tanko, but when its used to take a good profile that little bit too far like Dart, the MK5 and any hacker to offset the cost of standard HDs and AHDs. though when compared to other weapons it does highlight how much CB values weapon range bands before anything else.
     
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  13. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I see a lot of "take away the ammo and its ok" or "make it damage 12 and its ok" comments, but what I think some people aren't noticing, is that anything that is burst three at all for what you pay for an SMG is already way too powerful.

    As best as I can tell by comparing profiles, it costs a point or two points (compare BS and SMG Airborne Rangers). A combi is something like seven points. No weapon should be burst three for 1-2 points. If it is, it needs some incredibly bad rangebands or some other downside. I think a better fix is that SMG need to cost more in addition to whatever other fixes it gets.
     
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  14. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    It needs to be stripped of every advantage over a carbine except cost. It can keep the burst but it should bounce off armor.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well "carbines" in Infinity are burst 2 (see: Unidrons).
     
  16. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I forgot there was something called a carbine in the game. Every rifle and combi rifle is depicted visually as a carbine and every heavy machine-gun is depicted as a light machine-gun, and the difference between Plasma "carbine" and Plasma "rifle" being ROF is silly anyway. It's clear from just about every element of the game, from the names, to the sculpting to the rules that no one at CB knows much about guns.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They straight up don't. Spain doesn't have a culture of gun knowledge and ownership like the US does. Or even Canada, where there's plenty of rifles when you get out of the cities. I do know that some of the West Coast WarCors took Bostria shooting when he came out to Vegas for the LVO last year...
     
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  18. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Dart and the Posthumans problems do not derive from the SMG. SMG just exacerbate those.

    Posthumans as a rule gives somewhere in the vicinity of a 18 point discount to a model. ALL the posthumans are OP, some ( Mk1, 2 and 5) a bit more than others. They are one of the two units in the whole of infinity that I would consider broken because of the size of their discount and how good the profiles are in general.

    Dart - even if you gave her a combi and a 8 pt bump she whould be present on all OSS lists. She fills too many niches on the army. Assassin, HI disable, TAG handler (with E/M), getting into hard-to-get pieces, cheerleader killing starting from the midfield, skirmisher killing...
    She simply does a lot of stuff that every faction needs done in a efficient way in a faction that has troubles fueling multiple pieces to do those jobs. With a different weapon she would be even *better* at some of those tasks.
     
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  19. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    SMGs.

    Do I think they are overpowered? Yes. They do too much for their price. I do not think that anyone will disagree with that sentiment.

    HOWEVER, the situation is not as clear cut as "Nerf SMGs!" as some believe.

    Infinity uses a formula to calculate point cost of models. That formula has its quircks. I will list and explain a few of the most ovbious ones:
    - ARM is generally overvalued. The difference between 0 ARM and 1 ARM is minuscle. Even from 0->3 the difference is marginal at best.
    This is a algacides shooting another algacides in cover:
    46.75% Alguaciles inflicts 1 or more wounds on Alguaciles (Unconscious)
    11.86% Alguaciles inflicts 2 or more wounds on Alguaciles (Dead)

    This is he shooting a grunt:
    40.66% Alguaciles inflicts 1 or more wounds on USAriadna Grunts (Unconscious)
    8.36% Alguaciles inflicts 2 or more wounds on USAriadna Grunts (Dead)

    The difference from ARM1 to ARM3 is pretty marginal.
    - W are overpriced. This became pretty obvious with the proliferation of NWI + Shock Immunity. Giving those troops all W2 would make them prohibiltively expensive.

    Mimetism is *way* too cheap. It is basically the best equipment in the game for shooting because of its ridiculously low price cost. At the same time, MSVs tend too be too expensive - they cost more than the gear they counter, completely depend on your adversary to bring the gear they counter to the table to be worth and add a (small) vulnerability in being affected by white noise.

    Those are just a few of the more obvious ones. I can argue for a whole page about how stat costs in general are a bit too high, there is little / no discount for being a troop type that is not LI, etc. But that is not the point of this thread.

    The point here is that SMGs are underpriced. Purposedly so.
    CB realized that there are profiles / equipment kits that simply do not see the table. Because their price formula is quite rigid, they need some ways to adjust prices up / down so some profiles will see play / will not be too optimized. I think that with the last few armies the part of making sure things were not too optimized flew off the window, tbh, and I am still a bit pissed with how many full on optimized new profiles are coming out. But again, I digress.

    The point is - some stats / pieces of equipment are used to make profiles fit a point cost by bloating / cheapening them without messing the the points cost formula. To take a seriously look at SMGs ( and other problematic things, like Jammers, Mimetism, Posthumans, Red Furys ) you actually need to review the whole point cost formula in the first place. I would be very much up to it, but I do think it is a herculean task ( it involves recalculating the costs of the whole of Infinity ) and is something that would be much more appropriate to a N4.

    tl;dr - SMGs are OP? Yes. Nerf SMGs!? Not so simple.
     
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  20. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    All of that above was thinking about appropriately costing a SMG - wich I think is the best approach.

    Nerfing the bloody thing so its effectiveness is more in line with its cost? Im all for it. Its gonna make some troop choices less effective, but oh well. Taking Shock out of it would also go a long way to make NWI decent again, and reducing its damage to be more pistol like would not be terrible either. AP + Shock + Suppressive is too much on such a cheap weapon.