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Are submachines guns generally undercosted/overpowered?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jul 27, 2019.

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Are Submachine guns undercosted and/or overpowered?

  1. Yes

    81.1%
  2. No

    18.9%
  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Except that they've given these armies updates since then.

    It's all about relative power levels. The problem with Morats is that they're harder to win with than most other factions, because those factions are more powerful.
     
  2. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    And in the anime they showed that the weapon nearly broke down after using one magazine.
    Not the kind of stress you should put into a weapon in supression fire, it should break and stop working after one turn.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I guess CB didn't watch the anime...
     
  4. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Drop the ammo types and it is still a fair weapon.
     
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  5. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Not good as your Hulang has 2 SMG against one Combi Rifle. If you want to make a good comparison, use a unit that has only one like Kamau or Thorakites.

    Thorakitai - Combi Rifle vs. Jotums - MULTI HMG (Anti-Materiel Mode)
    Active Player
    13.55% Thorakitai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Jotums (2 STR)
    0.69% Thorakitai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Jotums (1 STR)
    0.01% Thorakitai inflicts 3 or more wounds on Jotums (Unconscious)

    Failures
    66.60% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    19.85% Jotums inflicts 1 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Unconscious)
    12.11% Jotums inflicts 2 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Dead)

    Thorakitai - Submachine Gun vs. Jotums - MULTI HMG (Anti-Materiel Mode)
    Active Player
    39.19% Thorakitai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Jotums (2 STR)
    7.03% Thorakitai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Jotums (1 STR)
    0.47% Thorakitai inflicts 3 or more wounds on Jotums (Unconscious)

    Failures
    49.08% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    11.73% Jotums inflicts 1 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Unconscious)
    7.47% Jotums inflicts 2 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Dead)

    Thorakitai - HMG vs. Jotums - MULTI HMG (Anti-Materiel Mode)
    Active Player
    26.41% Thorakitai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Jotums (2 STR)
    3.38% Thorakitai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Jotums (1 STR)
    0.21% Thorakitai inflicts 3 or more wounds on Jotums (Unconscious)
    0.01% Thorakitai inflicts 4 or more wounds on Jotums (Unconscious 2)

    Failures
    47.14% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    26.46% Jotums inflicts 1 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Unconscious)
    15.85% Jotums inflicts 2 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Dead)

    But since using a SMG exposes you to HFT, you should also consider this:

    Thorakitai - Submachine Gun vs. Jotums - Heavy Flamethrower
    Active Player
    46.36% Thorakitai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Jotums (2 STR)
    9.23% Thorakitai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Jotums (1 STR)
    0.66% Thorakitai inflicts 3 or more wounds on Jotums (Unconscious)

    Failures
    53.64% No success
    Reactive Player
    55.00% Jotums inflicts 1 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Unconscious)
    30.25% Jotums inflicts 2 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Dead)

    Failures
    45.00% No success

    So, yes, the SMG is clearly more effective than a HMG but this comes with risks. In fact, I wouldn't say it's that effective against a TAG excepted if you're shooting it in the back, out of cover because 80% of them have DTW able to kill the shooter while a full SMG burst has very low chances to put it unsconscious straigth.
    SMGs are really effective against light and medium targets but rapidly lose their effectiveness outside of suppression. And even in suppression, since you have to choose which ammo will be used during the whole time the mode is on, your opponent can play with this and use NWI if you're in SF with AP profile or HI/TAG/Bioimmunity if you have gone with Shock. It is when in FT where this weapon is very shiny or against a list with only one trick (NWI or high ARM values but not all of them mixed together).

    I still find they are too cheap for what they bring, but not that much. This weapon clearly needs some conditions to work well and is crap outside of them, compared to Combi Rifle which pays the cost of being ok everytime.
     
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  6. Smiler

    Smiler Well-Known Member

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    You choose which ammo type at the moment of declaring your ARO, not when you enter suppression.

    From the wiki:
    Q: When do I choose which ammunition or fire mode is used while in Suppresive Fire?
    A: At the moment of declaring the Burst.

    I agree with the general consensus that the ammo types when compared to the cost is the real problem with SMGs.

    If every model that could take a rifle or combi got access to a SMG with the appropriate points discount I'd take it almost every time. Regulars with SMGs as order monkeys/Lt? Perfect. Metros for what, 5/6pts? Perfect. They're just sitting in the deployment zone in suppression most of the time anyway so its just a better and cheaper choice.
     
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  7. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Ok, I don't get why they didn't used the AP/Shock style like with the MULTI Rifle so there couldn't be misbelief but must come from their crappy database. Thank you for reminding me this.
     
  8. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    I won't harp on anymore than this.
    Are smg's undercosted? Absolutely
    Are they overpowered? Absolutely not.
    I'd hate for them to nerf them without also looking at why they were needed at the same time.
    Be careful what you wish for because nerfing SMG'S in a vacuum will create imbalances of their own..
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Jotums is a bit of an extreme example since it's one of few units where AP is better than DA, plus you're assuming the Jotum has used up their D.E.P. which is unlikely so at least one round will be slightly better. I also feel like I have to defend dual-wielding units since the fact that they seem to pay full price for both weapons but only get +1 burst from the second weapon means that even a weapon as cheap as the SMG gets really expensive when you get to two of them (still cheaper than a combi, but not by much)

    Instead take a unit like a Nox and compare against an Uhlan or something and you'll see that as much better the SMG is at 0-8", the Combi is better at 8-16". Particularly since the Hulang is considered grossly overpriced or underperforming with the Yu Jing players even with SMGs.
     
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  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Weapons without any wrinkles of their own - like special ammo, templates, special range bands, high RoF, etc - feel a bit flat. So I wouldn't like to see feature removal - which would make tactics less sophisticated - but instead I'd propose switching them around.

    I'd say, lets disconnect special ammo and Suppressive Fire mode. Either you're using high-powered ammo, or you're switching to a standard clip to maintain maximum RoF without wrecking the weapon.

    And then price. Modified SMG would still be almost as valuable as a Boarding Shotgun is. I'd say it should cost 2 pts less than a Combi and one less than BS.
     
  11. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    Just add a mulit-smg (properly costed) to the profiles that need it and throw out the ammo types for the rest.
     
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  12. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Ghost in the shell had 'hyper velocity' smg rounds but they melted the guns after a magazine or two which segues nicely to :
    B2 no suppressive on shock and AP and normal ammo b3 with the same range bands as now would probably do it, but I'd extend the - 6 range downward so it's everything past 16" as well.

    Alternatively make the special ammo disposable(3), that represents the trooper only carrying one mag each of the beefier ammo due to reliability/longevity issues with running it all the time, but doesn't actually take anything away, just limits it to essentially one attack...
     
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  13. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why DA factors into the conversation here as it isn't an SMG ammo type.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Illustrating how ridiculous the comparison is - it's basically hand-picked to get extreme numbers in favour of the SMG. DA is otherwise a universally better ammo and when selecting between AP and DA on Multi Snipers you almost never select AP.
     
  15. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    This whole Jotum test is kind of slated to be in the favor of "SMG overpowered" argument. Especially when comparing a unit with a combi versus two SMGS in the 8-16 band with no cover?

    C'mon guys. It's not that hard to get the number you're looking to get to make your argument but do you have to be so blatant about it?
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    True, although the MULTI Sniper is pretty unique among MULTI weapons in that it has DA available for its primary fire mode. All the others choose between AP and Shock for full burst and only have DA or EXP as a B 1 option.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    One supposes the other. A high cost is a downside to a weapon in this game - if the cost is too low, they're overpowered. A hypothetical more expensive SMG wouldn't be overpowered.

    I'd question as to how/why they were needed. The faction with the most application of them in their midfield skirmishers (Aleph/OSS) is the winningest faction in the game. If they were "needed," it seems they were needed to make things overpowered.

    For my part, losing the ammo types on Bit and the Malignos KHD, as well as on the Airborne FO in my USARF force, doesn't seem crippling. Who would be crippled by nerfing the SMG? Maybe JSA since they rely so much on Ryuken-9's? So give Ryuken-9 the hypothetical "Multi-SMG," problem solved.
     
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  18. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    Seems unreasonable to hurt things like airborne ranger. It's hardly setting the world on fire, in a faction that isn't either. If you think smg's are the reason OS is incredibly strong you aren't paying well enough attention. I take dart is less than half my games of OS. and the only other SMG in the faction I'm using is the Mk5. Which is amazing because it's a posthuman and because they buffed MI.

    If it wasn't for the SMG Andromeda would never see play. She barely does as it is. No one is paying na additional five points for a combi on her. And that's my concern with just blanket statements of we should nerf something. The SMG itself is cheap but is the whole unit outrageously cheap?

    If we want to talk about individual skills/equipment being too cheap that's a rabbit hole that's not worth going down. I'd argue the most undercosted thing in the game is mimetism. One point. Should we nerf every unit or increase the cost of mimetism? Or do we look at the entire profile to determine its worth not just one bit of kit it has.

    How many overpowered units out there have smg's? Not the SMG on its own but the entire unit? Mk5 for sure (which has a tonne of efficiencies built up on each other which is the cause) bounty hunters(but it's less about them and more about how they create a cheap link for a ruishi) alot of others that really are outrageously undercosted.

    I think shas would be borderline unplayable if the SMG was removed. It's that critical in making up for inefficiency elsewhere in the faction. JSA would struggle too (they already do tbh)

    If they were going to tone down an SMG I don't think it needs to be drastic. Remove shock like it used to be. Back when no one seemed to notice it as a weapon..
     
  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I like those fixes!
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Dart and the Mk 5 Posthuman are enough. I see them basically every game against OSS. The Airborne FO is fairly cheap, *and* can threaten armor and NWI/Dogged troops effectively. SMGs are even better than BSGs on drop troops, frequently; I see the SMG Cube Jager waaaay more often than the BSG.

    Andromeda has problems that can't really be fixed by giving her better weapons (S4, Guard.) It's better for game health to have a few underpowered profiles than a few overpowered profiles, because those underpowered profiles can just not be taken.

    The SMG being too cheap is a problem because no-frills profiles with it as their primary weapon are far too cheap. If there were none of these in the game, I'd not be worried. But as it stands, it's a legitimate problem for game balance.

    Infinity doesn't work by costing profiles holistically. It works by each piece having a cost associated with it, with some alterations for synergies. SMGs are inevitably too cheap, wherever they show up.

    Mk. 5 and Dart, and they're an important component of how OSS is overpowered relative to other sectorials. In Infinity, since you can funnel so many orders through one model, one profile can warp the entire meta. And the Bounty Hunter profile you mentioned, sure.

    I don't. Regardless, if it, if a faction is crutching on an undercosted piece of equipment, they need another look.

    Sure, give the Ryuken-9 a MULTI-SMG or whatever.

    I think it does need to be drastic. You could tone down the SMG substantially and Dart and the MK 5 Posthuman would still be included in the vast majority of OSS lists; that's how efficient those pieces are and that's how cheap it is. It needs to lose both AP and Shock, at least; you should not be able to threaten heavy armor with it, or kill 40+point NWI models in one hit when a Combi can't do that. Does your strategy on the table rely on that?
     
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