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Are submachines guns generally undercosted/overpowered?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jul 27, 2019.

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Are Submachine guns undercosted and/or overpowered?

  1. Yes

    81.1%
  2. No

    18.9%
  1. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    Airborne ranger had it
     
  2. LankyOgreBP

    LankyOgreBP Well-Known Member

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    I think that there’s a big difference between SMGs on models that start in the DZ and models that don’t. On models that start in the DZ, they are probably mostly fine. The problem is in models with infiltration, FD, & AD. There are a handful of times when I prefer a rifle, but usually an SMG, especially in suppressive is good enough in centerfield.
     
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  3. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    Odalisque had it as well AFAIK. I think pretty much everything else came after rework.
     
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  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Scots Guard has had two of them since they first came out (and had shock ammo).
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Eh, they changed Total Immunity with far less justification, it's possible they could change this.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    As someone who plays Onyx and so is left with a Malignos as my only infiltrator, I'd rather they price Malignos more effectively. They could just adjust the points cost of Automedikit and the Shasvastii rule, which are the culprits on that profile (and the former on the Maakrep).

    Deleting the ammo types from SMGs would leave the effective range bands of the weapon the same, it would just make it so it's not unreasonably threatening against TAGs and NWI troops. I shouldn't be able to sneak up behind a Szalamandra with my SMG-armed KHD Malignos and threaten it as bad as I can, which is something I've done.
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, CB gets most of their ideas about guns from anime and fps games. What's the anime with the multiple-ammo-types smg?

    It's really frustrating that an SMG is a "rifle-plus" for a "rifle-minus" cost.
     
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  8. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    @Hecaton I mostly agree with you that I'd rather they fix profiles then game their system with SMGS. But if given the choice between them doing nothing or using SMGS to make stuff playable, I'll take the SMG. Shas rule, automedkit absolutely bloat profiles and I'd love to see them fixed. But CB have design ideas that you can see with new Shas. So I'm not confident that will happen anytime soon.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I honestly wouldn't. Line infantry hackers were playable before they started giving them SMGs.
     
  10. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    In the context of shas I think the Nox getting SMG hacker is more than reasonable. You are paying so many points across the board for average to poor skills you dont need. Bioimmunity without BTS, shas rule, stealth. Nox are 14, points and in most games are going to do less for you than fusiliers do. 14pts is what combined line infantry cost, so I get it. And if you are frequently using the zapper you are getting value. But on the whole shas need those little wins to make up for blanket bloat.
    I think it would be unreasonable for them to cut the SMGs without at least adressing those issues throughout the faction first.
     
    #30 deltakilo, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The same logic could be applied to Morats or Onyx, though, and neither of them have a cheap SMG hacker.
     
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  12. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    You won't get an argument from me there. Alot of it comes down to when the army was released. And how they have changed how they do things for armies.
    I don't think morats are a great yardstick for how to create a sectorial that people will be happy with however.
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The original Ghost in the Shell movie (and the manga) had that scene with a dude running HV ammo through what looked like an Uzi or MAC10 and shooting up an armored truck, I'm pretty sure that's what CB was aiming at with the SMG rules.
     
  14. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    This, so much this.

    Watching CB game their own formula is cringe-worthy - how many super optimized SMG or NWI+shock imm "heavy infantry" or linkable frenzy options are we going to see before they rebalance the points costs for things?

    The Malignos is a great example of why I dislike it so much. Yeah, its better we have one playable malignos instead of none, but now we're very much at the point where there is one good malignos and a bunch of crappy ones and CB calls that ok and finished. Theres a fair few other examples but you've saved me having to look them up - models shouldn't have one playable profile, and if they do and its consistently the newest profile and the one with the SMG or other similar rule, theres something wrong with your unit design.
     
  15. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    I'd love for us to get a big refresh where they go through profiles and the formula as a whole and look at that stuff, I'd also be ok with them just manually adjusting stuff. I'm not sure how exactly it works but if total immunity costs the same on a model with low BTS /Arm as someone with super high BTS then the formula doesn't work properly. The formula only works if the whole profile is looked at. Having a unit with hodgepodge skills is how you get awful units like unknown ranger. Sure the formula says he costs that, but those skills don't work together to make it a 41pt unit.

    But like I said before, adjusting at all even through efficient weapons.... "it's better than nothing"
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I knew I remembered that from somewhere. Yeah, that's cool, but someone needs to tell them that not all SMGs work like that.
     
  17. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    I'm no gun nut but it looks to me like they've shoehorned the SMG into the assault pistol's design space and badly differentiated it. You're not gonna fix the SMG without addressing the assault pistol in-world too.
    Assault pistol should go to dam 11 as it's only a pistol
    SMG should go to dam 12 and lose a fire mode (if not both)

    Otherwise if the SMG is going to stay the same, it needs to pay appropriate costs for its utility
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Nah, I'd be quite happy if they replaced all SMGs with combi rifles and costed them appropriately. I shouldn't be able to threaten a fucking TAG with my Airborne FO's shooting.
     
  19. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Prepare for the end of times. I agree with Hecaton.

    SMGs are pretty wrong at the moment.

    upload_2019-7-29_8-33-15.png
    upload_2019-7-29_8-34-7.png

    The only REAL point where a SMG sucks in comparison to a Combi Rifle is the range band 8-16.
    BUT an awful lot of SMG are granted to Infiltrator, Camo and AD models, things that invalidates the only downside.

    They both have same DMG
    They both have same B
    They both are capable of Suppressing Fire
    SMG is armed with both AP and Shock ammo, rending it deadly both against light and heavy armored troopers.

    Just last week, one of my friend blurted out something like "why the fuck do I bother to shot a TAG with a HMG when i can do it better with a SMG?"

    Combi (Hulang for reference) vs Jotum
    upload_2019-7-29_8-44-21.png
    SMG (Hulang) vs Jotum
    upload_2019-7-29_8-45-14.png
    Custom HMG (on the Hulang) vs Jotum
    upload_2019-7-29_8-46-34.png

    This cannot be.
    A SMG shouldn't have access to ALL of that bonuses for that cost.

    To be costed like now, i would gladly see one of these:
    • DMG 11 like a pistol
    • B2 or lose anyway the Suppressive Fire trait
    • removal of special ammo
     

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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @tox Glad to see you did the math. But it's a real question that the designers need to take a look at - SMGs should not be a weapon of choice for taking out heavy armor compared to an HMG... but they are. They are just too good.

    @Arkhos94 , any comments about that math?
     
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