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Are submachines guns generally undercosted/overpowered?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jul 27, 2019.

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Are Submachine guns undercosted and/or overpowered?

  1. Yes

    81.1%
  2. No

    18.9%
  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is something that I and a lot of other people have talked about with respect to Infinity and submachine guns, which are a weapon that's popping up on a lot of new profiles in Infinity. But without belaboring the point too much, do you think that smg's give too much punch for their cost (4 or 5 points cheaper than a combi rifle, in most cases)?
     
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  2. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    I sometimes call SMG OP when I am too lazy to explain, but issue is not that this weapon is too strong ( which is what most people usually mean by OP ) it's that this weapon is just too cheap. It should cost at least as much as Boarding Shotgun as it has similar pros/cons to it compared to Combi rifle. Now, there is no way CB will make it more expensive ( as this would screw with so much stuff across multiple factions ), but it would be nice if they removed Supp Fire and AP at least. My perfect SMG ( if we want to preserve current point cost ) would be DAM12, B4, no special ammo, no supp fire and can't fire over 24 inch at all ( basically like nerfed Assault Pistol ). It would retain personal defense weapon feel, would be even better at killing low ARM 1W models than current one, but with serious drawbacks that it should have considering it costs similar to Chain Rifle.

    Assault pistol has similar issues to SMG btw, it is just too cheap for what it does ( if you read Assault pistol description it literally describes SMG lol ).
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @LaughinGod I think just removing the special ammo types would do it. I don't think that SMGs should be capable of threatening TAGs in a way that a Combi Rifle can't, and ditto for expensive NWI models getting one shot by them.

    But yeah, I agree, it's not a matter of the weapon being too strong, it's a matter of it being too strong for what you pay.
     
  4. gregmurdock

    gregmurdock Extremely Beloved Member

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    The ammo types are definitely the main issue. The secondary problem is them costing three points when they're really not much worse than a combi.

    The AssPis is typically a secondary weapon so it's a three point bump on anything that has it whereas the SMG is more often than not a unit's primary.
     
  5. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    If the SMG is to be kept-as is, then it should be priced more or less like a boarding shotgun - it sacrifices the +6 within 8" but gains +1 B and the ability to go into suppressive fire while maintaining 2 different ammo types. Worse, as well, is that an SMG usually is not the model in question's primary weapon whereas a boarding shotgun usually is so it really begins to skew its effectiveness. That's independent from when it's taken on models that really don't mind their primary weapon being ineffective past 8-16" (infiltration, forward deployment, and airborne deployment) so long as it gives them that sweet, sweet SMG discount.

    I would actually make the SMG D13, B2, Shock and keep its current range bands should it stay at the same cost. I've tended to view Burst abstractly - the combination of Shock ammo and low Burst represents that an SMG is wildly inaccurate but when an effective hit is scored, it's usually enough bullets to blow apart whatever is being hit.

    Alternatively, less abstractly, an SMG with D12/13 B3 and no special ammo would probably feel more appropriate.
     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The primary problem is that the SMG is so cheap. One secondary problem is that it is more damaging than a combirifle (between Shock and AP ammo), which makes it not sound like an SMG according to gun nerds like me (a submachine gun is something that is pistol-caliber but select-fire or full auto only). Another secondary problem is that the SMG is capable of Suppression Fire, which makes up for it's bad range-bands in ARO.

    I generally agree that the SMG, given it's current stats, should cost about as much as a boarding shotgun.

    If we addressed the SMG's damage levels (possibly by dropping it down to normal pistol levels of DAM11 or DAM12 and only giving it the AP trait), it might be worth the current cost. It may still be a bit undercosted due to Suppression Fire ability. That would make it close to the FN P90 and H&K MP7 in capability and concept.
     
  7. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    When N3 dropped, the SMG was originally just Shock ammo. You can still see in the fluff on the website about hydrostatic shock. Then they decided to give an upgrade to shock/ap.

    Like it has been mentioned, the SMG now acts like a mini MULTI weapon that is super cheap. This combined with the flat suppressive fire ranges makes it superior to the rifle/combi-rifles in a lot of instances. If the dropped it to D12 Shock, I think it would be fine.

    Of course the Assault Pistol should also be dropped to D12 as well. Them being D13 and Burst 4 is crazy.
     
  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Damage 12, no special ammo, current price.
     
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  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    When it was introduced with Campaign Paradiso is was essentially a combi rifle with Shock ammo and -6 at ranges over 16" (there was no -3 band).

    One thing I find with SMGs is that if I ever use a trooper that only has an SMG, I will find myself in the +0 band at some point. Having a +3 band that's only covers a quarter the area of a combi is a distinct disadvantage, but I'm not sure it's worth the current discount, I find it should be more equivalent to a Rifle (1-2 points less than a BSG).
     
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  10. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I agree range is very important for this game and 8" range-band that the SMG excels in is super dangerous. But I feel that it really should not hit as hard as a rifle for its price point. Making it and the Assault pistol D12 seems like a simple solution.

    I don't have an idea about the Suppressive Trait because I think it is important for it to keep.
     
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  11. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Far as I can tell, the SMG costs about 1 point. It should not be anywhere near as close to a combi or a boarding shotgun in capability as it is, and particularly not *better* at shooting TAGs and the like (!!), when costing 85% less.

    Red Fury is also worth bitching about, as its a cheaper and low SWC Spitfire with a damage/shock shuffle. Not as bad, but its also a weapon that shows up on some... 'optimized' profiles.
     
    #11 WiT?, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  12. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    And the name is worse than something you'd expect of 40Kringe.
     
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  13. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Undercosted yes (especially on this ABH). Is it game breaking no. Is it going to change anytime soon probably not. Better learn to live with it.
     
  14. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    I voted "yes", but i always keep wondering what really makes them OP? They are lowkey discount multis, but i think that B3 instead of 4 does well to counterbalance the benefits of either shock or AP ammo; they arent always useful, and damage 13 is OK. You have to get in pistol range as well, but this is where the problem starts IMO.
    Lets assume that Rifles are the standard line infantry weapons. Combis would be a carbines/PDWs in that scenario, cause they can cover a still reasonable ranges and rangewise they are kinda the best of the both worlds. Then we have SMGs - as a primary weapons, they are covering the same 0-8 as the sidearms, but with better burst and ammo types. For a plain line troop, or a specialist that hangs back in the DZ, that would be a reasonable discount, you are limited to good accuracy on short range as opposed to combis, rifles or marksmans. Sounds about right to me.
    Now, whats going to happen if you give the same, discounted for a somewhat good reason (you lack range on your primary and it overlaps your secondary) to the other troops, those who need to get into the 8in anyway like CC specialists or hackers, or infiltrators? They get the discount on the primary that isnt those models main selling point. The models cost goes down, but the model itself wouldnt really rely on using rifles, yet its still a few points discount. Now, i dont know if that was the case behind it ("lets make a shortrange 3b primary so they wont get the good rangebands above 8in,but make it cheaper than better range options") and if someone forgot about the premise ("how can we make it cheaper so its more appealing to the players that like to put some expensive models on? Ah yes, Multi Pistol") but game is almost oversaturated with them on the profiles that find the discount as the only reason to have the SMGs as the primary.
    I think it shouldnt be thrown away on the profiles just as the pricecut, it should be visualised more as the "tier 2" primary for models that want to shoot things but also a range handicap.
    And i dont view it as a gamebreaker, not even its access to different ammo types.
    It just shouldnt get on some models in the first place.
    EDIT: giving it just a N ammo and making a better version (Multi SMG?) that would be what SMG is right now but more expensive and sorting out who gets what could be a good temporary fix until we can figure it out.
     
    #14 ik3rian, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  15. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    SMG is undercosted. It's used to discount profiles to fit a cost CB wants in the same way some skills are used to bloat a unit to fit a cost CB want.
    It's not inherently bad, but I'd prefer they fix their formula so it's not required.

    And people's response to nerf SMGS seems good until you think about the fact that alot of units have been given smg's so they work. And that's nerfing them puts those units back where they begun.

    An example:
    Malignos were quite expensive, they had skills that bloated them to the point of being hard to fit in an army. Sure people could argue they have X skill or whatever and that the formula added up. But those skills in conjunction rarely felt worth the cost. CB could manually adjust or completely rework their formula but that's alot of work and CB seem hesitant to do that. So they create a SMG khd profile (two skills that traditionally are great value) so now there is one good malignos profile and needing SMG would hurt it. I'd absolutely prefer them fix whatever is making a unit inefficient, but failing that I'd rather they game their own system to make a unit playable then just doing nothing. It's not perfect but it's something. Some units feel rightly costed with a SMG (malignos) some feel too cheap (bounty hunters)
     
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  16. Devil_Tiger

    Devil_Tiger Your Friendly Neighborhood Asura

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    Hmm i think it could definitely do without the AP ammo, that is just too much i think. Otherwise... heh

    What really bother me is how expensive combi are in general (comparatively, there's just certain models where i wonder why they even have a combi option at all except to artificially pad their cost). I feel like that's a weapon most peoples try to avoid, unless they really have to (generally on specialists and such), and it seem steeply priced for something that is so aggressively average and something you generally don't really want to firefight with.

    I'm probably completely wrong, however.
     
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  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I'd lose the Shock myself. Keep AP, then it's absolutely fine tbh. I also think that it's good for profile variation to have a cheaper short ranged weapon that can be put on certain profiles to get them into a usable cost range.
     
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  18. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    For the record SMG used to be only AP and no one seemed to notice the weapon back then.
     
  19. GHoooSTS

    GHoooSTS Well-Known Member

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    I almost never log in to post anything but I definitely wanted to chime in and say SMGs are awful right now. They're undercosted, they're antithematic (rifle damage plus two excellent weapon types and suppression to 'fix' their range bands? Come on!), and they're one of the biggest culprits in all the 'gaming the points formula' stuff we're seeing lately. They're just bad news all around.

    There's lots of good suggestions for fixes in this thread. I think dropping the special ammo types and damage are both at least a start.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think the price is right, but I don't think the performance is. There's plenty of units that need a cheap weapon with okay performance, right now it's got great performance. That said, I also think some units need Multi SMG (e.g. Zhencha, Hulang...).
    What other unit than Thorakitai had it, though?
     
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