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[April], come she will...

Discussion in 'News' started by Solar, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. Aldo

    Aldo Trying to detox from being a lorefag

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    4 out of 6, 4 out of 7 if you count Sun's two versions as two characters.

    Lost Yuriko, Kitsune, Neko and Asuka. Still have Sun and Xi.
     
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  2. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you`re right, missed one. 4 of 7, cause Sun provide two different approaches. Plus there are still all characters mercs, not available for JSA before neither now. Knauf, Luna Miranda etc.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Lunah is a Yu Jing character for all intents and purposes exceot Mercenary+ tournaments, even if she's of Haqq origin.

    Knauf etc, not so much. They sell to all, just because sectorials don't get their services doesn't mean they're Yu Jing.
     
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  4. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    the only complain i can make now is the first version shikami realesed 3 month ago, they could let shikam AVA 1 on vanilla Yu Jing just for players that bought it ( is cool as hell and even being a 100% vanilla player i like it). But i must admit, i'm a bit tired of all this argument about Yu JIng, even as yu Jing player, we should carry on bit and wait for more news...
     
    #2184 krossaks, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
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  5. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    I feel like there's a Spanish wordplay here that I'm missing, context?
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Do you just want to shit people off even more? That's a good way to do it. CB fucked up, and they fucked up badly. People are going to be angry about this for a long time whether or not this thread is up and it'll stay that way and continue to spill over into every relevant discussion until they take some steps to actually perform some damage control.

    Starting with a blog post that isn't a fucking joke.
     
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  7. FishKing

    FishKing Well-Known Member

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    Hey now, tactics like that are great for stopping dissent. Brute force works every time. Just ask Yu Jing.
     
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  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    In your opinion they made a mistake, but not in the eyes of others. And, pray tell, what damage control is going to stop your at this point several weeks long infantile temper tantrum at a company making a decision you don’t like with their livelihood? Change their plans and their vision to accommodate the intemperate whining of anonymous forum dwellers? Pull the other one, meu filho, it’s got bells on it.
     
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  9. Palomides

    Palomides Well-Known Member

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    If we're relying on sectorial unique profiles that are unavailable in Vanilla, why not break them off entirely?
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's right there in the post you quoted. Not that you bother trying to read or comprehend anything anybody says when they criticize CB, given that you're completely incapable of doing anything other than fanboy.
     
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  11. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    You say "a blog post that isn't a joke" is what calms you down, but what is your definition of not a joke? I agree the way it's handled is sloppy, but what can they really do right now that will actually cool you off? Difficult to do anything when it's unclear what is actually wanted.
     
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  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Haha no, it's a terrible analogy because it uses a situation where one party hads no agency and are at the mercy of a body which is totally self interested.

    Dictatorships also typically fall into generally accepted concepts of evil or in other words, wrong that everyone can agree.

    You're trying to make that analogous to your situation fundamentally misunderstands your own agency in a game of toy soldiers. You then also assume their actions are universally defined as wrong, ie. No single party might think of it as the right course of action.

    In summary, the analogy tries to unsubletly paint CB and anyone that disagrees with you as tyrannical and selfish, and yourself as the helpless victim.

    So no, the irony of someone upset for selfish reasons accusing those around them off bring selfish isn't lost on me, but that wasn't the original intent of the analogy, so it's a poor analogy

    Edit: and again team, the JSA rebellion plot has literally only just begun and your models are not illegal yet. Maybe when that change actually happens and CB say nothing you can get angry? Rather than getting angry at what might and what has been hinted?

    Just cause people are throwing tantrums isn't going to change their release schedule. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if CB explain what happens to yu Jing and these posters will feel the need to say it's unsatisfactory just to save face about how massively the went on tilt.
     
    #2192 Alphz, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  13. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing General Political Department

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    @Palomides I wish I could take the Sophotect from the ISS sectorial in my vanilla Yu Jing lists!


    Well, I won't lie, I certainly wouldn't mind if Corvus Belli gave me a Ferrari in exchange for taking away my Oniwaban, though after watching too much Grand Tour if I'm getting a free car I'd much prefer a Jaguar, just for the jokes. Chop chop CB, gimmee my Jaaaaag!


    More seriously, I've been here reading posts and discussing this since the beginning. Tempers have flared, to be sure, but I really haven't read anyone demanding Corvus Belli give them luxury cars* or anything equivalently extravagant.

    There are people who purchased a product and had the nature of that product change, a few of whom wanted their money back. That isn't going to happen, but their position isn't crazy or illegitimate, if we're sticking with car analogies today: these players wanted a green car and bought a green car, the manufacturer now just stopped by to paint it red. Sure, the purchase agreement didn't specify a colour, they can still pretend its a red car, and it is very much still a car, but they're going to be upset about it and telling them those three things repeatedly isn't going to be very calming. You're going to need to convey why the car needs to be red now instead of the green car they bought originally.

    [That September release Shikami, though... given the paint scheme and the fact CB would've been well aware of the impending split at that point, that was a really inconsiderate move on CB's part, assuming we aren't gonna see a Shikami profile sticking around in Yu Jing lists].

    The most extremely demanding position that I've seen is people wanting Invincible Army to drop in to fill the ranks of our profiles back up right away. That's nice, I wish it could happen, but I don't think that's reasonable to expect (Corvus Belli wants to maximize sales, dropping IA now would likely cause a split where players fall in on either side, buy one box or the other, whereas staggering releases means you're more likely to get players to buy both boxes).

    You want to defend CB or criticize people demanding INVINCIBLES NAO! or refunds on purchases whose nature changed after-the-fact? Why not make arguments about why that isn't a reasonable expectation, instead of telling them theyre greedy whiners and should shut up? A big part of what keeps fueling frustration really seems to be CB silence and posters whose response to complaint is just 'thats not a real problem, buck up'.



    *Except I guess I did that very thing, just now. You got me there.
     
  14. Paris

    Paris Member

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    It's obvious that YJ players expected a blog post that discussed the future of their faction. The one they received was focused on what these changes mean for JSA with scant information on where YJ is headed after losing a majority of their named characters and roughly a quarter of their unit profiles.

    If units like the Aragoto, Raidan, Shikami and Oniwanban needed to be removed from vanilla YJ for balance concerns in this tournament season then an explanation article would be warranted. If it's true that they were hardly used at all then perhaps delaying their removal would have been harmless until new unit profiles are ready?
     
  15. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    But Kempeitai had unique profiles in the sectorial list since HSN2 and... oh wait.
     
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  16. Paris

    Paris Member

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    Better comparisons would be ISS access to Dakinis and Sophotects (which vanilla YJ lacks) or Qapu Khalki acess to Mobile Brigada (which vanilla Haqq lacks). Sectorials including units and profiles that their vanilla faction lacks has precedent.
     
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  17. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    All I see most people ask for is some profiles they can use to fill some of the gaps that have been created to tide things over until IA or at least some info on the timeline for IA or other fixes. By and large the only people who seem to be saying that wouldn't be enough are the strawmen examples of the trolls trying to wind other players up.

    There are three main factors in any individual choosing to play a game like Infinity: They like the background fluff/setting, they like the miniatures or the like the rules/competitive tournament side of the game. Very few players participate because of just one of those reasons but rather the cumulative draw of each in different measures based on their personal preferences.

    For players that love the lore and setting above all else there is a potential for some very cool stories to come out of this narrative switch. Some of those stories may be in the Uprising book itself or they may be further down the line, we'll just have to wait and see. If it were only the lore that was being updated then I think the crane/mass grave incident would probably have been glossed over as just a slightly poor choice of material and Gutier's article would've addressed the rest leaving us all with a more balanced view on what those future possibilities might be while also considering some of the likely narrative costs.

    Unfortunately it isn't only the lore that is being updated.

    For players that loved the game for its competitive tournament scene who play YJ this is a significant kick in the teeth. The tougher the competition the more important it becomes to make every point on a list count. The difference between having 3 pts spare for a warcor sacrificial ARO piece or a helper bot or not can determine the outcome of games. Those players weren't running zhanshi, but keisotsu. They weren't running Yisheng or Mech-Engineers but Tokusetsu. That's your extra warcor or helper right there. Those were the players relying on the threat of Shinobu or an Oniwaban to prevent a really aggressive rambo move from an enemy TAG. Those were the players taking Arogato as late game specialists that could sweep in and gather objectives because they didn't have good enough skirmishers to contest the midfield earlier in matches.

    If vanilla YJ was balanced before, and I've seen nothing to indicate that it was ahead of the balance curve (in fact I've seen far more to imply that it was slightly behind the curve and most definitely behind Ariadna and Tohaa), then removing 25% of their unit options isn't going to do anything but make them weaker than other factions. There is no, "but now you can make list X that's amazing which you simply couldn't do before" or anything. It's just worse. There are fewer shell games with less opportunity for hidden info, there are few top tier strike units that cause fear to players using things like Cutters or the Avatar, there are fewer ARO options in a faction that is already weak at long range AROs, there are fewer midfield specialists or hyper mobile strike pieces and on top of that the basic building blocks got more expensive to give you even less leeway in taking sub-optimal options elsewhere. Anyone claiming otherwise clearly hasn't grokked enough game theory/design, is trolling players hurt by this or has a corporate motivation toe a specific line.

    In the long run is this change going to allow the faction to grow in new ways and develop new lists because of the design space gained by separating these factions? Possibly. But without some steps from CB to alleviate the concerns of this section of their player base they're only going to succeed in alienating the existing YJ players and undermining the future confidence of players from other factions if any future events occur which could be read in the same way (even if they aren't).

    Sadly, the blase nature of how YJ players were told to just go play ISS and the whole drinking tears fiasco (that I get was largely Bostria trying to say something in jest but it not quite coming across correctly potentially due in part to the language barrier) set things on a bad course and at each onward step they've just got worse as the mechanical/balance concerns of this section of the player base have just been ignored (or dismissed by individuals seen as representing the company). Once that trust was lost, each minor slip (crane mass graves) becomes more fuel for the fire and the distrust grows.

    Of course, anyone focused purely on the hobby side of things is probably pretty happy right now as there are some really nice sculpts coming out of all this :)
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    So when @Koni was trying to calm the spanish forums down, amongst threatening to ban people, they said that everyone should calm down because CB would explain what was happening for the fucked over Vanilla players in an upcoming blog post.

    Then we get a post that is nothing but an advertisement with no actual real information in it and doesn't help us understand what the fuck is going on for vanilla.

    It's pretty clear what's wanted. It's been posted all over the place.

    • A timeline on Invincible Army. When the fuck are we getting it.
    • A commitment to look at our underplayed options to offset the losses. The worst affected players are those that were leveraging the skirmishing threats of the Oniwabans. Ninjas have exactly 1 profile that doesn't suck and it's not a combat profile, even a an olive branch of "we'll do something to improve vanilla Ninjas profiles" would be appreciated alot. People wouldn't be half as fucking mad if we got Pan-O's treatment of Toni being deleted but other profiles being buffed in response. If I got some 30pt Tacbow Ninjas with smoke and EM CCWs I'd be way more ok with this shit, I'd still be pissed off, but less so.
    • A commitment not to surprise fuck anybody again. Doing bullshit like releasing the Shikami in September, which I bought, then telling me it doesn't work for me anymore in March is a load of bait and switch bullshit. Stop doing that.
     
    #2198 Triumph, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  19. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    This.

    About damage control. The only thing I could manage so far is to leave old JSA profiles available for vanilla Yu Jing till end of season. Tournament play shouldn`t be affected in this way and this will leave players time to adopt to new circumstances.
     
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  20. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Why would I take umbrage to decision I agree with? If I like the product they’re creating, do I have to instead piss and moan in order to be “authentic”? Is agreeing with their decision and recognizing that it’s theirs and theirs alone to make mean less authentic than acting like every cliched stereotype of an entitled gamer that wafts through the internet? Again, pull the other one, it’s got bells on it, meu filho.

    And, again, what would it take for you to stop your incessant whining and mewling like a cat in heat? What would making something “not a joke” in your eyes? Utter and total capitulation to your pouty tantrum?