The playstyle note is fair, I guess. But on those HI choices being more order-efficient, that's where I would like to point out that their order efficiency still means they can still achieve more with more orders, just like anything in the game, given KS farm. That is unless they expire earlier due to taking bad AROs, something that is supposed to balance more squishy things against TAGs* btw. Then again, point cost difference kind of offsets that. What you said seems to boil down to TAGs requiring even more expenditure to function than their price tag (no pun intended) suggests. To which people tend to ask: what do we get in return? Turns out, unless that TAG has something unique and strategy-defining, not this much. * - it doesn't always do that because like I said, even at 14 BS your odds can be pretty bad against half-decent ARO pieces. "47% to wound against linked unidron" level of bad, with all the risks that it suggests for active piece.
This sentence doesn't make any sense from a game perspective. Links provide order effiency to run tags while being less competition for a main gun platform? Is this another way of saying defensive links? Because they ain't moving squat, which means they aren't really "order efficient" and they can serve the same role as Kuang Shi's in the sense of providing orders. If they are moving, to in order to become more order efficient, then they are usually also armed with guns, which means they are either competing for the same orders and gun platform, as the Guija or they are in a secondary combat group, not providing orders to the guija. Your statements seems mutually exclusive to me. I hope you mean the ML versions and not the HMC. The HMC is by far one of the worst attack pieces YJ has to offer. It's below the Tiger MSR and above the Zhanshi HMG. The model is awesome and looks amazing on paper but it's a "newbie trap" that doesn't work with a remotely decent opponent. Just my 2 cent though.
I think point being that in a sectorial links provide an order farm, competent defense and a backup piece. In vanilla you only get order farm when you take the same stuff.
That's not what I mean, forgive me for not elaborating further. With the exception of the Su Jian, pieces like the Hsien and Hac Tao will simply run out of targets to shoot at, at which point it's often not order efficient to move up the battlefield, because the TAG is faster to reposition itself. Of course this isn't always the case and the TAG may end up in a similar situation but extra 2"/5cm movement means a lot in that regard, which is also why nearly everyone hates relocating MI's. Unfortunately, I have to concede this point. With all the experience I have had with using TAG's, I can only really come up with 4 TAG's that have really ever made their investment worthwhile; Szalamandra, Iguana, Overdron Plasma Sniper/HRL and the Sphinx. None of which are MBT's and most of them are either disposable rambo TAG's or a TAG wich have access to very good support.
I think that yujing is one of the most indicated army to use a TAG because we have cheap orders to make it run: kuanshis. And well ... Guijia is a really hard boy, but you have to be cautious using it, it´s too vulnerable to assault hackers.... but you have armo 11 in cober, a great bs, good mobility, hmg multi and YOU ARE USING A BIG ROBOT i love it jajaja
Well, that's a horrible point if that's the case. Vanilla Nomads, Haqq, Aleph and YJ have excellent order farms as well as access to secondary attack pieces. Besides,unless you're sinking your wast majority of SWC in a defensive link, defensive links are quite often really subpar and squishy to use as attack links. And I'm not sure I understand the incompetent defence either, my back/side line are cluttered with Mad Traps and Chain rifles as well as Flash Pulses. Except in the case of Steel Phalanx, I'm simply mystified when I keep hearing people talk about how bad YJ defense supposedly is.
Aleph's "order farms" get more that offsetted by having only one TAG of 120pts and 3SWC... And those "order farms" are 3 netrods, then 13pts Dakinis. Haqq's "order farms" suffer from the Irregular units abudance... Kuang Shi are unreliable order farms unless linked... They are prone to run into existential failure situations...
I see. Although I still have one concern about MBT order efficiency which I've highlighted before: what they gain because of their movement and Silhouette value in that regard is sort of counteracted by their efficiency in FtF since for their price they aren't spectacular gunfighters. To think about it, rough FtF winning power of an MBT is inferior to one of your linked HMG line mook in a link... Again, not saying that some cheap Core is better, just pointing out that comparable odds means extra orders spent doing nothing and/or dealing with hits taken. Well, what I meant is that you already have those things in your paid package. You will of course buy stuff on top of it whether you play vanilla or not, but in the latter case you're getting some redundancy, whereas in vanilla you may end up only starting to cover bases.
As for the first part. Link teams can provide backup attack piece and I don't like to rely on only one model to do the killing. The usefullness of certain yan huo profiles depends on local meta. I don't like them neither (we have so many good HI), but it is as close to TAG as HI can be. (Weapons)
Well, Xagroth, that's quite dishonest. You and I both know you have AVA 2 on Baggage REM's and Flash Pulse REM's. :) That's seven orders for 44 points. That's not even 10 points more expensive than if ISS loads up on 6 Kuang Shi's and the obligatory controller and that's comparing it one of the biggest cheap order abusers in the game (ISS, obviously). ??? Are you sure you're not talking about Hassassin Bahram? I guess it depends on the table but from my own experience, it's usually mostly about deployment, finding a good balance between a "safe spot" and a defensive spot, as well as using Coordinated orders to bring them back again. I think it boils down to getting used to play Kuang Shi's in dangerous enviroments and grinding many games, in order to gain their maximum value. I find them to be mostly dependable and I almost never linked them, even though I primarily play ISS. :)
Baggage rems and flash pulse rems have consistent AVA over all factions, so I was leaving them out of the contest... (it's an increase in absolutes, but not in relatives). Haqquislam... Vanilla. Which is where the Maghariba is (QK has "cheap" Scarface/Iguana), and where you field Hunzakut, Muttas, Khum, Daylami, etc... I can always deploy an infiltrator (without marker state) or forward deployment troop to lure your Kuang Shi the lanes I want to, so they eat ARO... even if you kill my Mk5 or even my mk2 hacker, if I can kill 3 kuangshi it's worth it, since you lose 15 points, but those are 6 Regular Orders you won't get on the rest of the game! (3 per turn)
I suppose we should agree on terms, if we're going to throw acronyms like MBT around: MBT (Main Battle TAG) - ARM8, BTS6, MultiHMG. Squalo, Guijia, Lizard, Raicho, Maghariba Guard is an outlier due to S8 Heavy TAG - ARM9+, BTS at least 6. Jotum, Avatar, Marut?* TAG Destroyer - HRMC or other big anti-armor weapon(s), ARM stat irrelevant. Drago, Szalamandra, Uhlan?**, Overdron due to guns, Light TAG - ARM<=8 that doesn't fit anywhere else. Seraph, Tikbalang, Geckos (though they're so light they should count as HI)***, Iguana, Xeodron (also so light they should probably count as HI)***, Gorgos, Anaconda, O-Yoroi, Scarface Stealth (camo or TO, Mimetism doesn't cut it) - Uhlan, Cutter, Sphinx * I could make a case for the Marut being an MBT, but BTS9, MSV2 and Strategos really push it into a different category. Especially with Myrms throwing smoke! ** Despite it's Camo, I would class the Uhlan as a TAG Destroyer more than a Stealth TAG. *** Geckos and Xeodron are very light TAGs, should probably be treated/fielded more as very heavy HI. It needs a supporting threat (or better, two) to work, you can't make it work with only itself as the major threat. Lots of fun running a Zuyong HMG LT with a Yan Huo HRMC and a sniper. Like any other TAG, you gotta support your Guijia. You should be taking a KHD to murder the opponent's Assault Hackers, and if it's the Ninja, you hidden deploy once you see where you're going to be advancing the TAG.
No? Monks with smoke go first, so unless you have a Marut on that lane, I don't have any real concers tbh. Also, why 3 per turn? Seems like an arbitrary number.
Killing 3 Kuangshi on turn 1 during their impetuous phase means they only provide their regular order that turn (they EXPLODE!!! XD) so each casualty on turn 1 is 2 orders lost for the rest of the match. Losing a mk2 TO hacker to a kanren KHD would not be acceptable if I only manage to kill one, and if I kill 2 we are too close in the value of the exchange. Another option I have is to place a non-hacker Naga in a hard to reach place that... but well, the mk5 is probably the best bait. Also, Aleph has MSV2 and 3: Asura and Marut, Spitfire Deva, and Agemas (specially the 0.5SWC Mk12 Agema with MSV2 and X-Visor), so if you open with the Shaolins throwing smoke, they better do it from outside LoF...
Semi tongue-in-cheek suggestion of mine, to make the classification more relevant to actual gameplay: MBT, same criteria. Basically, standard design that costs a ton and does nothing special to make people want to take them for gameplay reasons. The cause of threads like this very one appearing on these boards. Heavy lifters - cost a ton of points but are actually good at things, including killing and surviving. Sport an assortment of features that ensure this is the case, usually more than one of the following: capable firefighters (ODD/TO, MSV2 in an army with smoke, BS15+B5 with backup weapons), extra survivability (HD/marker state), extra utility (like Strategos 3, perhaps), alpha strike or cleanup potential (HGL, 6-6 MOV), unconventional mobility (Super Jump and Climbing+, especially in the light of that LoF FAQ)... Light TAGs - two distinctive groups of TAGs end up here. One of them encompasses TAGs that are cheap enough to be treated as unlinked HI in terms of list building, another consists of things that cost a ton and does quite a lot but has reduced S and ARM/BTS, incentivizing to hide them on reactive more. Or, in simpler terms: expensive TAGs that are not good enough, expensive TAGs that justify their price tag, and inexpensive TAGs that aren't expected to work miracles in the first place. ...yes, this was not entirely serious post. It's only partially non-serious though. To comment on your classification, I don't think that there's any real distinction between being good at gunfighting because of ODD/TO and because of B5 + BS 15. I also doubt having Feuerbach counts as "having damage potential" when you compare it to weapons that actually win FtF rolls with several successes.
It could put some of your avatar's talents to good use. Or one of his colleagues, perhaps. ...sorry for off-topic, carry on.
The Stealth TAG grouping is more about the defensive advantage of a Marker State. And you'd be quite surprised at how good an Uhlan's Feuerbach is. Face to Face Roll Clausewitz Uhlans - Feuerbach vs. Maghariba Guard - MULTI HMG (Anti-Materiel Mode) (both TAGs in cover) Active Player 60.25% Clausewitz Uhlans inflicts 1 or more wounds on Maghariba Guard (2 STR) 28.49% Clausewitz Uhlans inflicts 2 or more wounds on Maghariba Guard (1 STR) 7.76% Clausewitz Uhlans inflicts 3 or more wounds on Maghariba Guard (Unconscious) 1.20% Clausewitz Uhlans inflicts 4 or more wounds on Maghariba Guard (Dead) Failures 26.30% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 13.44% Maghariba Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on Clausewitz Uhlans (2 STR) 6.08% Maghariba Guard inflicts 2 or more wounds on Clausewitz Uhlans (1 STR) 1.08% Maghariba Guard inflicts 3 or more wounds on Clausewitz Uhlans (Unconscious) Sure, very limited chance of outright kills either way. You're going to need 2-3 volleys to do it, but same applies to the HMG. Face to Face Roll Clausewitz Uhlans - HMG vs. Maghariba Guard - MULTI HMG (Anti-Materiel Mode) (again, both sides in cover) Active Player 53.15% Clausewitz Uhlans inflicts 1 or more wounds on Maghariba Guard (2 STR) 15.98% Clausewitz Uhlans inflicts 2 or more wounds on Maghariba Guard (1 STR) 2.47% Clausewitz Uhlans inflicts 3 or more wounds on Maghariba Guard (Unconscious) 0.15% Clausewitz Uhlans inflicts 4 or more wounds on Maghariba Guard (Dead) Failures 39.89% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 6.96% Maghariba Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on Clausewitz Uhlans (2 STR) 3.47% Maghariba Guard inflicts 2 or more wounds on Clausewitz Uhlans (1 STR) 0.67% Maghariba Guard inflicts 3 or more wounds on Clausewitz Uhlans (Unconscious)
Well, what I personally see here is mostly a wash, and I'd argue present shift is not in the FB's favour as it makes the ordeal more dangerous, although it depends on current turn. That said, I have few problems with this specific example: - Enemy "MBT" is a target that is almost tailored to make FB look good, what's with being subpar at shootouts and relying on ARM that works worse against AP+DA; - Uhlan does not have proper AP mode for HMG associated with Heavy Multi. Having that would've made FB entirely pointless in this particular firefight. So, Uhlan isn't a TAG with heavier weapon, it's a TAG that has an expensive gun which only partially makes up for lacking firepower and as a way to retain anti-materiel. The result is still below average by TAG standard. Honestly, for the most part the difference is irrelevant, but I have a problem with seeing Uhlan as something with extra firepower over baseline when it's actually the opposite, if only by a small margin.
