Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Maksimas, Nov 8, 2018.
Pretty sure nobody thinks FA2 would be possible here.
FA1 maybe, but FA2, no.
I'm not sure I agree.
Yes, in a direct comparison it's better, but FA2 is also significantly more expensive than ODD/TO and also doesn't work if you dodge or use Suppression Fire. More to the point, a Mowang with FA2 and Mimetism would offer a similar, but different, functionality to the Hac Tao for a very similar price, above all else versus MSV2+ enemies.
Whether it is possible I think comes down to fluff. This model, however, matches perfectly with the out-of-the-blue FAQ to FA2 and Suppression Fire. We'll see.
Well, he maybe Vet L2...
I wouldn't mind having an Assault piece that can ignore Jammers, TBH
I mean the real jammer everyone hates is on the fucking Ghazi, and it's not the Jammer it's the Jammer and the fucking DTWs it carries at the same time that make it a pain to dig out. Any stealth model can go and get F2F rolls with Hecklers, it's when they've got a DTW they can choose to shitblast you with is the problem.
Just because Ghazi are stupidly powerful doesn't make Zulu Cobra or Hecklers bad or a non-issue. Being able to clear the area around them and take them on heads on is not a bad thing at all.
I'll gladly bring a Mowang to soak up some Helots or other delinquents while I hunt down some button pushers. His emblem reminds me of an ox. That's what he'll be as he ploughs through the field.
Hac Tao having the possibility to enter in marker state is way harder to hack or kill in my opinion. But as you said Mowang would offer a different functionality, for example a very strong datatracker.
May I ask How you reached that result? Legit curious
Having extreme durability on a short-to-mid-range unit is quite good. Short range is where the danger is, of course. Mines, direct templates, CC, and pretty much every unit in the game has a +3 ARO at close range. That ARM and those multiple Wounds really start to pay for themselves up close for several reasons:
You've spent the orders or paid the points for abilities that get you close to the enemy. Suffering a bad Crit/unlucky hit and dying before you achieve anything is a major waste of resources, so being durable helps here. If you're slinging an HMG and get crit, you're probably falling Prone in a safe place with Doctors nearby and very little chance the enemy can follow up. Short-range troops benefit from being as self-sufficient and reliable as possible.
High ARM at close range is actually quite helpful, because most short-range weapons are low-Strength. Missiles, Rockets, HMGs, all those high-Strength hitters aren't much good. Having good ARM vs D11-D13 short-range weaponry is great.
The Red Fury in general is a great short-range weapon, because it's got great rangebands outside the +3 arc (better than a Spitfire.) If you also have Cover and Mimetism, you can actually try for long range shots if need be, and obviously do very well up close.
But the real question (and the one on everyone's mind...)
How the is this army going to overcome serious Hacking?
So long as there is one killer hacker option that can be slotted into a link team with a tinbot B (which yu jing already have profiles for) that will likely be all the hacking defence they need. Stack with fairy dust and it's really unreliable for opponents to successfully even pass a hacking roll, let along win a face to face. I mean, even an interventor is reduced to WiP 6 (not counting any hacking program mods) by that combo.
I'm concerned about hacking for the advance units such as the zencha and Liu xing because they will be far from support models and won't be part of any links so the tinbot protection that I suspect will be essential to the core of most lists won't cover them.
Yeah, it's those forward units I'm thinking of. A link team running around the field with Tinbot is one thing, but if your forward troops are deterred by a Hacker, and you have to spend multiple Orders getting a Repeater close and then making KHD attempts, that's rough. Camo AHDs are a big threat too... I know prevailing wisdom is that noone brings AHDs any more, but that's not my experience at all. The top player in the world right now is in my meta right, and he brings a Camo AHD in every game he plays. Losing it to a KHD every once in a while is a small drawback, relative to the power it can leverage over Hackable targets.
If the Shang Ji gets a proper overhaul, they could be our true problem solvers, and that would really give them a role in the middle of all of our HI. Giving them Tinbots, various Hacking Devices (HD, AHD, KHD), and possibly some interesting gear that we don't see very often (E/Maulers? DepReps/FastPandas? Maybe some CrazyKoalas/MapTraps in IA?) would be really good for them and make them a good choice for various IA lists - and really earn them the 'Superior' epithet.
For me I've been finding that after I fill a core link, maybe a haris team as well my lists only have points for a couple clutch support models. Personally I think a lot of my IA lists are going to feature a sensor bot (maybe a lu duan) to extend repeater coverage and problem solve, which leaves a single slot for something else. I doubt that I'm going to take either liu xing or zencha just on that basis because nearly all my lists these days are single combat group.
Pangguling EVO and spending a command token to start with Fairy Dust up (if going second).
EVO seems mandatory if you ask me. Between the free AD boost for the Lui Xing and popping Fairy Dust on the first turn no matter what seems like a big deal.
I guess a Zhanshi could do that too, but obviously not as well.
I can't think of anything else off the top of my head in regards to hacking defense especially when worried about an alpha strike.
Not expecting anymore than was directly spoiled. Except perhaps fatality 1. We've been down speculation road before.
I agree with the hacking bit, but I wouldn't discount short range weaponry. There are an awful amount of templates at that range and templates are better than AP functionally until you get above armor 6. You still fail an armor save 40 % of the time versus a chain rifle, LS, or mine.
Also AP is becoming more prevalent with a lot of SMG options popping around. A Dam 13 AP hit has a 35% chance to wound assuming cover.
The ever problematic assault pistol with burst 4-5 having a decent chance to crit you.
The NWI and armor definitely combine to make it a more able to absorb those hits, but close range doesn't make it super safe either.
Yeah agreed, it ties into my earlier point that close range is the scariest place to be. ARM5 helps shift the probability from "likely to take damage when rolling ARM" to "unlikely to take damage when rolling ARM", which is really significant.
I've been thinking this over - and, if the intention is that pretty much everyone is vulnerable to hacking then I think a bit might depend on infiltrating camo markers past them (still got stealth to get past midfield repeaters while not camoed, and climbing plus to get to harder-to-scratch places.
Doesn't help against SSL2, or hackers with LoF (although you maybe want that).
Or, if you have problems with hackers deep in the backfield, drop someone in to flush them out. Again, not perfect, and it'll depend a lot on your timing (although 3 turns of hiding your specialists and repeaters in your deployment zone isn't viable in many scenarios).
I think we should think about how JSA might deal with hackers (albeit without as much exposure), rather than brute force retaliatory hacking.
Heh, I added points on the wrong side for HP and CCW and CC. Doing it over again, and you're right 10 points seems a good ballpark, with the MOV value being an unknown - but my suspicion is that MOV 4-2 doesn't actually knock the price down for the Az'rail and Yan Huo, it's just a penalty.
sorry to disappoint you:
The player who has the second Player Turn may spend a Command Token to deploy one troop with the EVO Hacking Device with one GADGET-EVO Supportware Hacking Program active..
Reboot still works though.