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Ambush Camo and Projecting Threat?

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by barakiel, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    First : I'm a vanilla player, not TAK. So I can put on the field more/as much camo marker as TAK but with more varied threat

    To force your opponent to act like your camo marker are a threat you need : to have enough camo marker to hide your threat and to have multiple camo marker able to be a threat against multiple ennemies.

    Threat in ARO would be :
    - Against everything : chasseur
    - Against heavy troops : TH autocanon in the backfield, minelayed emauler in the midfield
    - Against fireteam : TH ML in the backfield, hardcase light shotgun in the midfield
    - Against light troops : minelayed antipersonnel mine

    Once your opponent realized some of your fake marker are dangerous for him, he will be much more cautious (even when you don't have them)

    This is the kind of list I would play (with hardcase/chasseur/emauler/tankhunter covering critical access and ambush doing the same) :
    Ariadna
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9
    SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    TANKHUNTER Portable Autocannon, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    SCOUT (Minelayer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
    CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    STRELOK (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)
    MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]2
    SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    VASSILY Lieutenant (Forward Observer) T2 Sniper, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 35)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

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  2. ZeroTen

    ZeroTen New Member

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    From an outside looking in perspective mostly, I think a big part of threat I see in ambush camo is disguising other threats. I ran vanilla for fun around the release of Coldfront, and I think I used ambush the most just to pepper the field with potential models, then bring in Mirage 5 and/or Van Zant. I'm Not nessisarily sure how that translates to TAK specifically, but I did find at least in my meta, not a lot of folks were running sensors, or just kind of overloaded on seeing 10+ camo tokens on the field.

    Again, not sure exactly how that translates to more competitive play or to the sectoral, but thats my two cents on the idea. And now I also want to do a hardcase heavy USARF list.
     
  3. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Building on a couple thoughts here. I feel like one cute trick might be rather than play the shell game to leave out just one really obvious ambush camo, that isn't one.

    To do that I'd probably opt not to deploy Vassily's or a Spetz's Ambush camo and deploy the Tankhunter instead. Against an opponent cluey enough to recognise where those troops ambush camo would be it might save the Tankhunter from annoying discovers (which they will see as a waste of orders) and might just catch them with their pants down if you're lucky. You might even get a similar effect to a Noctifer that way. And thereafter really get them guessing without having to even take that troop you don't seem to like so much.

    Ambush camo from Streloks in the midfield (or minelayers) should help you obfuscate the points a little.

    Edit: I bet you could bring two lists to an event that could be deployed as almost or exactly the same like this, except one has a Tankhunter in place of the others Ambush camo. That could produce some fun especially if you were unpredictable in which you deployed once you tagged soneone with the Tankhunter (I'd expect that might get talked about).
     
    #23 Hachiman Taro, Sep 29, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
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  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Thanks for the input, all. That's a fun notion from @Hachiman Taro about the use (or non-use) of Ambush Camo.

    I do like the notion of the Tankhunter, I just find it has fierce competition from other TAK units that can be purchased for the same points, and is operating with less decisive active/reactive turn agency than most units I can buy for similar points. I have a pretty comfortable set of units at the Core of all my TAK lists so far, so now I'm just plugging-and-playing 3 or 4 different units, to change the capabilities of those lists. The Tankhunter's one of those units, along with Dog Warriors, Frontovik SWC weapons, etc.

    I had a practice game over the week, pretty standard mission of Frontline vs OSS. OSS strikes me as one of the matchups that can potentially pin and challenge the active-turn strength of the Vet Kazak, so I had that in mind during deployment. And while I still brought a Vet Kazak, I also brought double Spetsnaz HMG. Two Spetsnaz was mostly for the experimentation of it... In all my practice games thus far, my single Spetsnaz has been crit in its opening exchange, and thus I haven't gotten much opportunity to use it. As a precaution, I brought two. Sure enough, one did die in its opening exchange, but the redundancy was nice since #2 got to have some fun.

    The reason I mention this is because the double Spetsnaz had the unexpected side effect of making my opponent wonder where the missing 1.5 SWC was. He, very naturally, assumed it was a tankhunter sitting somewhere, which influenced deployment and Turn One quite a bit I don't imagine I'll run double Spetsnaz again, but it was fun to see the impact that it generated. Hopefully I've also broken the curse of my Spets getting Crit right away, and having one will be enough in future games :sweat_smile:

    Also related to the topic, I sure do like that Strelok Minelayer. Minelayer in general is a skill I rate very, very highly. I consider mines the third "best" piece of equipment in the game after Camo and smoke, and I rate it that highly specifically because mines are such a good way to challenge Camo and smoke. Being able to play heavily with mines again is excellent, and making an opponent respect your mines is a great way to leverage that Ambush Camo.

    Thanks again for the comments.
     
  5. Bellyflop

    Bellyflop Well-Known Member

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    Strelok minelayers can also lock impersonators in place and prevent them from moving!
     
  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I had an interesting game of countermeasures this weekend where my opponent found a little nook that he could put all three HVTs inside and then completely block access to with a single strelok minelayer worth of markers.
     
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  7. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    This 100%. TAK may have a slight edge in the active turn, in terms of rock/paper/scissoring certain units (especially TAGs and fireteams with antipodes and dog warriors, respectively). But in terms of overall power, Ariadna is capable of many of the same threat postures, but they do the camo game MUCH better.

    I've had this discussion before...TAK is a glass cannon army not just because their units are generally weak in terms of W and ARM, but because their ARO game is poor. As long as you're careful about how you *end* your turn, you can generally rampage them hard with a W2 model, especially if it has camo or ODD. They have very few flamethrowers, and at best can trade piece for piece (usually with a single shot from a dtw or shotgun). In this capacity, the ambush camo melts fast, and it's not as if the camoed units are all that threatening anyway. Going camo heavy in TAK means tons of empty shells.

    Compare this to vanilla Ariadna, where a couple of the shells might be empty, but most contain mines, and those that don't contain Chasseurs, or a character like Uxia or Mcmanus who can really punish your inability to root them out.

    For the TAK players, I'd advise against going for mass camo and instead playing to their strengths. You'll still have a ton of camo of course, but the value of TAK isn't in flooding the field with cheap ambush camo...it's in mixing fireteams of probably the best gunfighter in Ariadna (Vet Kazak; who works shockingly well in a Duo) and going hard on Specialist warbands.
     
  8. Thanqol

    Thanqol New Member

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    I also had a lot of success throughout that day by using ambush camo to block doors, stairways, bridges, etc.
     
  9. Zachilles

    Zachilles Well-Known Member

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    I know this isn't the point of the thread but I would be curious to see what your "TAK core" is. I'm branching out into Ariadna from Spiral and I honestly can't see much of a reason to play TAK over Vanilla.
     
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  10. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Sure. No real surprises here I think... Typically something like the following, with the Assault Pack and an SWC platform (tank hunter or frontovik) to fill up group 1, and/or the 4th Strelok and more Irmandinhos for group 2. It typically gives me a Primary group of 9 Regular, 1 Irregular, and a 2nd of group 5-6 Regular, 2-3 Irregular.


    Been using this:

    Tartary Army Corps
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7
    STRELOK K-9 Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines + 1 K-9 Antipode / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] K-9 ANTIPODE Trench-hammer, AP CC Weapon. (8)
    STRELOK (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    VETERAN KAZAK AP HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 47)
    LINE KAZAK (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    LINE KAZAK Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    LINE KAZAK Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    LINE KAZAK Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    STRELOK (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    DOZER (Traktor Mul Control Device) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    TRAKTOR MUL (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    TRAKTOR MUL (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    IRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)
    IRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)

    4.5 SWC | 228 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    For your second question, "Why Tak," I'm probably not qualified to speak, having played 5 games of TAK, and 20-30 games using Vanilla Ariadna, 20-30 games using USAriadna, and 50-60 games using MRRF (all ITS scenarios, but only MRRF in ITS events.)

    Speaking to my personal appeal though:
    I like link team firepower, and I like the coherency and high AVA redundancy that sectorials bring. I'm not a particularly great Vanilla player, and while I think Vanilla Ariadna is brilliant, I find sectorials help me organize my thoughts and tactics as a player more cohesively.

    I think you're right that Vanilla is offering the broadest range of tools, as it should be with Vanilla, and is the "strongest" way to play Ariadna (maybe CHA in there too... CHA gets a prize for being really unique in its capabilities as a sectorial.)

    But I also think that sectorials, particularly with link teams, provide you with reliable, aggressive, redundant tools to fall back on if things go poorly. From a meta standpoint, I also think that the focused theme of Sectorials is a real asset in a 5-game ITS structure. In isolated games, Vanilla is a dominant tool, but I think it's hard to be consistent and organized with so many disparate tools. With sectorials, and their lower unit variety, it's easy for me to keep focus and momentum in a competitive weekend. I can fly five hours, drive for 10, be sick from the plane, be jet lagged, hung over, eat bad food, feel like crap, stumble and trip my way through the gaming bags and chairs of a 100 person ITS, and still be highly organized and disciplined in how I play, because the sectorial narrows my focus of tools for deployment, listbuilding, etc.

    Besides, I think you play best when you love your force, and feel thoroughly engaged with it. I often see good players struggle when they jump ship from new faction to new faction to new faction, not just in their tactics, but in their enjoyment of the game and their engagement with the community. When you play a force you like, where you love the theme, are drawn to the minis, and feel attuned to the playstyle offerings of the force in question, you're going to have fun, and you're going to generate better competitive results than you would playing something you don't really care about.

    Boiling it down a bit more too, you trade a lot of Ariadna's exceptional solo pieces for the ability to have excellent linked firepower. I think that's a fairly reasonable trade. I think the Vanilla's versatility is, strictly speaking, better... But you're certainly not going to be unhappy with AVA4 Streloks backed up by a linked Vet Kazak HMG.
     
    #30 barakiel, Oct 1, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
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  11. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Member

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    I read all the time about the Chasseurs to be a standout defensive piece for the ariadnan shell game. That TAK lacks such units. What are the Chasseurs strengths? From the profile the weapon options look bland except for the AP sniper which I can get on a Scout for 3 Pts more (+1 BS). The minelayer is nice but a Strelok does a similar job.

    Am I missing something?

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  12. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    6th Sense.

    An Enemy moves within 8" of the Chasseur and you choose to delay your ARO, the enemy now can't attack you (still a marker), if they move again or discover they'll take an unopposed flamethrower template, if they dodge you can still hit them with the lft if they're bad at dodging or drop a Mine.
     
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  13. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    There's two important points for the Chasseur. The first is the flamethrower, which is a threat to every unit in the game for its ability to force multiple wounds with a single hit, as well as imposing the Burnt state on Camo, TO Camo, ODD, etc. Even TAGs and Heavy Infantry need to respect the flamethrower, while they can often ignore or risk the hit of a simple mine or Chain Colt.

    The second point is Sixth Sense Level 1: if an enemy is within your Zone of Control, you can delay your ARO until your enemy has declared both his short skills. This makes it easy for the Chasseur to always pick the best ARO interaction possible, very easily remaining hidden or scoring unopposed flamethrower hits, since you can always pick an ARO that exploits your opponent's decision. So while the Strelok is still a great unit with its Ambush Camouflage, shotgun, access to SMG and Chain Colt, etc., it lacks the ability to exploit an opponent's decisions via SS L1.
     
  14. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    It can have a freaking werewolf tho, so it wins rule of cool points for mine.
     
  15. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I love that profile. Getting trenchhammer kills is absurd and excellent.
     
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  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yeah it's hard to stop myself taking 4 tbh. That's another reason to love TAK - Max Wolf Force is absurdly easy to do :)
     
  17. Zachilles

    Zachilles Well-Known Member

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    Triangulated trenchammer kill is the finest of kills, mathematician doggo
     
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  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The handler reads "Zen and the art of hammer throwing" to the K9 every night as a bedtime story.
     
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  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I guess one considerable advantage of TAK isn't just linked gunfighting, but linked gunfighting with some truly nasty ammunition types. Frontoviks and Vet Kazak can put AP, T2 and Fire on target better than pretty much anything out there, so that's definitely a plus. Line Kazaks aren't brilliant, but the troops you can embed in their links are amazing. Frontoviks are an all-rounder I don't mind paying for, since they cover the 0-8 and 8-16 rangebands with some truly excellent weapon choices, and the Vet Kazak is obviously very comfortable in its home sectorial. I like having those diverse and lethal gunfighting tools, compared to the Vanilla Ariadna grab-bag.
     
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  20. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Member

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    Unfortunately the Hammers range is only 8", even in triangulated fire.

    From the Wiki:
    Triangulated Fire does not allow the user to hit a target farther away than the weapon's Maximum Range

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