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Aleph Lore FAQs

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Nemo No Name, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Aleph being a Friendly AGI is a sound reason for the “only one AI” edict. The instantiation of another AI is an existential threat to Aleph and to humanity. The risk of any other AGI being non-Friendly is too catastrophic to allow.
     
  2. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    Unless the AI is currently stuck in a local Maxima which it has yet to evolve out of, into a killing machine for us all.
     
  3. Reece

    Reece EI Aspect
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    Any particular reason for Sforza and Andromeda to be in OSS?
     
  4. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    I'll add questions to the first post later, but short version:
    Sforza : yes, he's an AI hunter and technically OS should also hunt illegal AIs
    Andromeda : none that I know of (if anyone has better info, let me know).
     
    #64 Nemo No Name, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    My best guess on Andromeda is that she is the diplomatic liaison between the two sections.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Wild Bill is explicitly a ReCreation of the Old West gunslinger in N1/N2 fluff.



    The NeoVatican would likely argue that the difference is the presence of a soul, and only things born of organic creation have one.

    Someone with more developed sophotechnology can point to the exact part of any mind (electronic or biologic) and say "that piece right there" *points* "is the 'soul', as you call it. We call it logos, it's an acausal logic processor. Every self-aware entity has a logos, no exceptions." And then can and will tell you if the ReCreations and Myrmidons, etc actually have a soul or not. Hope you're not treating them as slaves, those places have a real thing about using sophonts as slaves. Genocidal wrath, typically.

    But most places with more developed sophotechnology happily make more than one AI, now that they've figured out how to make stable AI. Autonomous Kill Vehicles (aka 'space fighters') require AI pilots, meat-glaciers need not apply.

    However, even those places with highly developed sophotechnology do NOT recommend programming the typical ethical calculus into a recursively self-improving AI. If your ethical calculus is solid, the resulting AI won't kill your entire civilization. If it's not, and you're really unlucky, the resulting AI will kill your entire civilization and everything in your light-cone. How certain are you of your ethical calculus?



    Friendly is a very relative term. Aleph is not attempting to turn the Human Sphere into computronium, at least. But that only means it's not a hegemonic swarm or other AI perversion.

    Aleph does not like the Nomad Nation because the Nomads are outside of it's control and yet causing changes to parts of the Human Sphere inside Aleph's control (via pop culture). Which is a piss-poor way to run an experiment in optimizing for 'better life for Humanity'.

    The problem with only having a single AI is that you are one software bug away from a runaway perversion. The Leviathan Consciousness is literally the dumbest runaway perversion ever. It is an optimization routine for eliminating unnecessary processor usage. Wouldn't you know it, conscious thought is unnecessary processor usage!
     
  7. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
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    That is starting to sound like something similar (in creation) to the mathematics of psychohistory
     
  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Sorta-kinda.

    It's no different from Strategic Calculus or Tactical Calculus. In order to get a computer to process something, anything, you need to reduce it to numerical statements.

    Ethics can work the same way, you start with statements that describe the rules of your ethical system, turn them into mathematical expressions, and then it's calculus because the numbers are moving.
     
  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Nomads reject ALEPH for many reasons, some good and some bad.

    Notably, they are not the only ones. Haqqislam is wary of the AI, and uses it for specific things. The influence of the Hassassins is notable, they don't use it at all. Yu Jing uses the AI but would never allow the party's supreme authority to be suborned and keeps a certain degree of distance to preserve that. Only PanO truly integrates with Aleph to the fullest capacity technology will allow.
     
  10. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Except as far as lore is concerned, they are the only human faction who actively try to counter and destroy both Aleph, and Alephs agents.
     
  11. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Updates wording a bit, to make it less painfully engrish.
     
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  12. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Those are the ones that manage the "resurrections" (<insert cube into lhost>) for PanO, right? But wait, err... nevermind...

    Can a program "like" something? Or are you just not in line with the NeoVatican? :thinking_face:

    That is debateable (autonomus driving, military drones, ...).
    Ethics is said to be the theory of morals, but the later are based on intuitions.
    Can you follow an ethic of you don't have morals?
    Can an AI feel guilty?
    But well, this is science fiction!
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    And the NeoVatican probably holds that the Cube is the repository of your soul. Body might be artificial, but the soul is still something made by God, not by Man.



    Assuming that Aleph is trying to optimize for human happiness or quality of life or something similarly idiotic**, the Nomad nation is introducing variables outside of Aleph's control into the 'experiment' (or optimization process, if you prefer). As the science guys can tell you, multiple uncontrolled variables are a very quick way to get a garbage experiment.

    ** Optimizers are terrible ideas for AI, particularly recursively self-improving AI (which end up as effectively creating god). Not to mention that people may have very different definitions of 'better life' that your AI needs to optimize for. Definitions so different that they may be completely opposing, if not going in completely different axis to each other. Heck, they may not even have a single point of intersection!



    Game theory can also be described as Ethical calculus. Until you can describe your morals and ethics using math, the computer will not be able to have either ethics or morals.
     
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  14. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    My guess is that the question will be moot, because we probably wont be able tell the difference between human and AI derived autonomous behaviour; nor find much difference in the outcomes which we'd normally attribute to human value judgements.

    The vagaries of what constitutes desirable or even admirable human behaviour is already fraught by the situation, professional expectations and the stress that the particular people are under, and then we commonly give huge amounts of latitude through our own delusion. For example, thinking someone was very brave, but then discovering they didn't properly understand the danger.

    Anyone with active experience in the military or emergency services and a reasonable degree of self-awareness will have noticed that values such as heroism and self-sacrifice become more complex and very blurred because of itinerant notions such as duty and professionalism.

    The portrayal of the android Bishop in Aliens (1986) is what Im talking about. When Ripley is upset, he fails to demonstrate suitably human understanding, but when bravery and clear thinking are required his behaviour contrasts favourably with Hudson’s.

    So especially in the paramilitary setting, I can iamgine that AI derived autonomous behaviour might well not be identical to the best human behaviour, but I suspect we just wouldnt be able to tell one from the other.
     
    #74 Wolf, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  15. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I think it is questionable
    wether you can turn the statements that describe the rules of an ethical system into mathematical expressions.

    Game theory is of much value for utilitarism,
    but not so much for deontology.

    There are many different ethics out there,
    and the only thing they have in common
    is that the actions that they promote should suit your moral intuitions.
    And I don't know any ethic that does not have some 'dilema'-example.

    Ethics and morals are scientific subjects for more than 2500 years now,
    and we still have not found a 'solution' (one ethic that everyone can agree with.) yet.

    So good luck with programming it...!
     
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Well, yeah. Until you come up with a decent ethical formula for the society you're in, you're totally screwed in terms of programming ethics into your AI.

    But this one is pretty solid:
    As these links say, though, it's rather complex to put into something a computer (even a fancy quantum computer) can use. Gotta define 'sophont', 'meme', go into the deducibles, etc.

    It's not the only one, however. Judeo-Christian ethics are valid according to game theory as one of the most optimal sets for society as a whole.
     
  17. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Judeo-Christian ethics, like kill your family member for wearing clothes made of different materials?

    I'd really want to see where they published the paper that proves that. XD And how they defined these "judeo-christian" ethics at all.
     
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  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Which hasn't been canon ethics for over a thousand years?



    In today's climate, good luck getting a paper in favor of anything Judeo-Christian published. :eyeroll:

    I will see if the gent that did the analysis will drop by and discuss.
     
  19. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Hey, you're the one pulling a meaningless term like it means something. I'm just going to basic sources. You really don't want to bring in post-Enlightenment, since those peeps were distancing themselves from those ideas.
    Sigh. There's a reason why you can't publish, and it's because the term is meaningless besides showing you're biased in one particular way.
     
    #79 Nemo No Name, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  20. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    @Section9 & @Nemo No Name

    Allright then Gentlemen, these are promising starting positions, and we’re looking forward to a fight that’s a bit more interesting than the usual whiny, virtue-signalling bullshit that reduces to “You’re not allowed to kill my man-dollies, or say anything that scares me”.

    I want a good clean debate; well-argued, with appropriate references; no obvious fallacies, no pictoral ‘memes’, and no personal attacks - you're already both on a warning @Nemo No Name for your sigh, and @Section9 for your eye rolling.

    I will be awarding penalties if there's any more of that from either of you. Any mention of a genocide or a totalitarian dictator is an automatic disqualification, as usual.

    Also note that sniping from the cheap seats is very much condoned, so you'll not only have to duel one another, but also deal with flak from bystanders. Fair warning to you for a start @Section9 that those remarks about programming were badly leading with the chin.

    Very well. Best of ten posts each, and the loser must buy the first round of beers at the next tournament you could both reasonably attend. Begin! :grin:
     
    #80 Wolf, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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