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Aleph Lore FAQs

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Nemo No Name, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Devil_Tiger

    Devil_Tiger Your Friendly Neighborhood Asura

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    It's completely off topic and i don't really feel like elaborating on a public forum but i'll give you a hint: Haqqislam specifically reject the Sunnah.
     
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  2. Scribbler

    Scribbler Well-Known Member

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    I think this is pretty accurate, but I've got a few nitpicks to take:

    Ariadna: Favorable perception is spot on, but Ariadna is a sovereign nation who claims the entirety of Dawn and its resources belongs to them, so it's not so much that they're rebels who won't join the world stage (they already have, they're listed as one of the powers of the Human Sphere), it's more that they're causing major headaches to the powers who want Dawn teseum. Also, they're perceived by the rest of the Sphere largely as a bunch of back-country hicks. There's also the problem of their treatment of the antipodes because there's strong debate about whether or not they are sentient beings.

    Nomads: Pretty accurate assessment, but there's something thing that you missed with their unfavorability. Namely, the concept of morals seems to be completely nonexistent to them because all three ships have a horribly immoral character element to them. Corregidor at one point stooped to human trafficking to bay their bills, Tunguska is a den of thieves and just about every iteration of the Mafia, and Bakunin is a anarchists paradise where everything goes as long as it doesn't interfere with the "social energy." On top of that, the Black Labs are known to do all kinds of weird human experiments with no scientific safeguards or ethics board whatsoever.

    Haqqislam: Haqqislam would have a favorable view in that their philosophy rejects all fundamentalism for a humanistic outlook, where the Search for Knowledge is the primary goal. Haqqislam is very wealthy, and very scientifically advanced, to the point where they can genetically modify people into superhumans. Unlike the Nomads, they also have rigorous safeguards and ethical standards in their science. Additionally, they put a lot of attention to trade and commerce and aren't particularly likely to pick a fight with someone if there's another option.

    Off the top of my head, Haqqislam is also a known and open backer of the Hassassins, who are seen by most folks in the Sphere as little more than thugs who don't have a clearly stated way to stay off their hit list. Additionally, I some of the regional governments of Haqqislam are known for being corrupt as all get-out, and a lot of rich Haqqislamites control rather large harems.
     
  3. DeepThought

    DeepThought Active Member

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    I'd appreciate it if you'd be more specific what you want me backing up.


    The fact you try to quote the Nomad hype page does put you SO far ahead of others (see previous posts). However, the claim the Nomad mega-ships are centers of innovation and design and technology was written (at least as I recall) as Nomad bravado, and does not reflect its actual state of being. Now if you could produce an example of where another faction had to buy, exploit, borrow, or steal Nomad tech to achieve something their own resources couldn't, then you might have a case. However, I have yet to run into such an example. Nomads have used other people's tech (and we have good reason to think much of theirs is rebranded tech from other factions given, as someone else noted earlier, they salvage stuff other factions consider outdated) and in fact, there is no instance of another faction building or designing something in response to a Nomad mech or ship design, indicating none of the 'innovations' it boasts of have any of the bodacious qualities to make them stand ahead of any other factions technologically.

    Now to me, what its pattern does indicate is a faction that likes to stay on the cutting edge by "hook or by crook" so to speak, much like the Capone gangsters did in the 1930's when they stole or bought bulletproof vests and Tommy guns, the latter of which at that time was seen by most nations as too cruel to use even for waging war.
     
    #303 DeepThought, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  4. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    Off hand Nomads (and CA) are the original hacking device +. When Aleph was added to the game they got HD+ too, 0-12 is now the 4th faction to get HD+, so thats something other nations couldn't get and don't have.

    Also the fluff has the patent to ODD in perpetual dispute in the courts between praxis labs and some Pano corp.

    Similarly the Hyper Magnetic Rail Cannon was originally only found on refurbished Zsalamanders, I forget if Dragoes were in the first edition of the game or not, but if so that is shared with Pano, if not its purely Nomad original.

    And on another note your arguement that the fluff has no instance of another faction building or designing something in reponse to Nomad ship designs is pretty suprious. The infinity fluff is pretty much all "unit descriptions" which pretty much all boil down to this unit is the best thing ever, and more grande scale faction story arc type fluff. They really don't talk much about space ship design as that has little to do with either?
     
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  5. DeepThought

    DeepThought Active Member

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    I recognize I'm setting a high bar, but what I mean to point out is there's no instance of fluff or unit description saying "Based on Nomad [XYZ] technology..." or "...built as a response to the Nomad [insert unit here], this unit...". Such would be good evidence other factions have had to respond to new stuff developed by nomads that isn't a some stolen variant of their own or someone else's designs. (Now I'll admit I don't know if there's any instance of that in any of the unit descriptions, but it's the best way I can think of for a way of describing Nomad tech as groundbreaking and not somehow plagiarized or hijacked.)

    Hacking devices aren't a "new innovation", so I offhand, I'd say claiming Nomads are the first with 'hacking device +' actually points to them being lawless, not just anti-establishment.

    ODD is one I hadn't recalled, and is a fine example, save that it shows the text is supposed to be ambivalent (so thank you for sticking to the text, and not jumping to your own conclusion), but as a result, its another instance of "Clearly Nomads don't generally build it 'first', and whether that's because they stole it or not is something we may never know."

    This is generally well presented, but inconclusive data.
     
  6. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Member

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    Presented to hopefully end this digression; from the core book, pg 100 : "other sphere powers have been unable to replicate the success of nomad biometric technology"
     
  7. SpectralOwl

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    The PanO standard Hacking Device is a rip-off of the Nomad version. I think the source is the RPG core book, but I'm not sure.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That the Nomads don't innovate. I mentioned upthread why the Nomads are considered innovators in certain avenues of technology to the point where certain concerns try to swindle them out of their technology. Go back and read it again if you missed it.




    I wasn't quoting anything, I was paraphrasing the N3 core book. Have you read it?

    You recall wrong.

    Then you haven't read the fluff. I mentioned such an example upthread. Go read it.

    Pure speculation on your part brought on by a lack of reading comprehension. Go back and read the fluff, and you'll find you're quite wrong. Or go retake 8th grade or whatever.
     
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  9. Devil_Tiger

    Devil_Tiger Your Friendly Neighborhood Asura

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    What about Uplifts? Ethics of the matter aside, i think they pioneered it, and i don't think anybody else came up with that kind of insanity.
     
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  10. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    O.D.D. is just what you wanted.
    Three possibilities:
    1.) The Nomads stole it from PanO. No proof of innovation.
    2.) PanO stole it from the Nomads. Proof of innovation.
    3.) Both developed it independent. Still proof of innovation.

    Yeah,
    Chimera (Body Enhancements and Cosmetic Alterations),
    Pupniks and other Uplifts (there are maaaany more animal types),
    using whales and dolphins as pilots (Uplifts too, but the usage as pilots is an innovation as well),
    and even the Hollowmen (yeah, innovations often are ethically problematic).

    And not to forget about that Social Energy!
    You may like it or not, it still is an innovation!

    Hmmm, I'd like to see a cephalopod uplift with Jumper LZ for N4!
     
    #310 daszul, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  11. Scribbler

    Scribbler Well-Known Member

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    @DeepThought gets all of his source material from me because I am the one in our team that purchased the lore books in N3 from core to Daedalus' Fall and only recently filled out my collection on this. DeepThought has not had the opportunity to read all of them yet because he has to borrow them from me. Any inaccuracies in his statements are most likely due to an incomplete understanding of the lore because of lack of access to the source material, so he is going off of what we do know.

    Secondly, DeepThough is my dear friend, and you just baselessly insulted him. You have never met him, so you do not have a shred of credibility when you make the bullshit claim that he needs to retake 8th grade or check his reading comprehension. That was incredibly rude and arrogant of you, and you owe him an apology. I know him personally, he is one of my closest, dearest friends, and he is one of the most intelligent people that I know.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    And it should be very easy for him to be self-aware enough to understand that he's read very little of the background. When people mention it to him, it might behoove him to go and read up rather than ignore the criticism.

    His lack of reading comprehension is on full display in this thread. He made a claim, people showed he was wrong, and then he ignored how they showed he was wrong and then doubled down on his claim. He's very clearly got a political axe to grind, in that he thinks Nomads are what Trump supporters think Antifa is, and he's ignoring the plentiful evidence to the contrary.
     
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  13. DeepThought

    DeepThought Active Member

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    @Hecaton , your assumptions seem to be your only skill. If you read the history of this forum, I arrived on it asking questions about the lore of Aleph to NemoNoName, and Solodice, only to find them incompetents that couldn't quote the material even when I asked them to point-blank. When I dismantled their claims with simple logic, they called me names and told me many of the same things you did. Not long after, the counter-theory I had submitted for thought was vindicated, (for O-12 came out as a separate faction, proving Aleph is not a government-controlled entity under O-12 like they'd claimed), and while they lack the integrity or character to do something so simple as admit their ignorance, or even curtail their criticism, they have at least reduced their voices to idle accusations about my political leanings and personal habits, which on a forum is essentially admitting defeat anyway. I have since submitted other theories and concepts, many of which have been viewed favorably, and some unfavorably, but I respect those who go back to the material, and those who quote it even more. I also recognize the amount of effort needed to do so is high, and few of us put infinity lore as that high a priority in our lives, so I am often fine with citation and/or an easily remembered reference, so long as its specific. Whether people value my opinion as accurate is due to my words being consistent, and without contradiction, not from my skill at remembering what I am able to read in brief stents from time to time. I am making assertions and asking you the "experts" to provide an actual case against them with evidence to gently show the nature of my mistake if any. That is, after all, the only way to learn.

    Your own "evidence" however seems to run along these lines.

    The best you can seem to come up with is replies like these, indicating you are no better than them. You have no examples with quotes or citation. That makes your claims about using material an utter lie.

    As for my reading comprehension, I guarantee it outdoes you by whole leagues based on your posts. You strike me as a man of such education he feels the need to be respected for the degree in some realm of study that decrees his adequacy. PHD's have made similar bravado to yours on different subjects (interestingly enough on English and Literature), and I've seen them fired mere months from tenure because I could document their incompetence. Trust me, you pose no bigger a threat to me than they did. However, I'm hardly surprised that you find me intimidating. To you, I'm a symbol of all you disagree with that can call your most base assumptions into question, and as my earlier statements imply, you aren't the first.

    A word of advice: Never accuse someone of false claims without being sure to cite sources in your own assertions. Any dumbass can figure out by looking at the thread history that you haven't quoted any material in this thread at all, and are at best a hypocrite. You are easily programmed by your environment, and you buy into whatever narrative makes you feel best about yourself. I'd find you easy to control as a politician. In fact, I'm finding you a fun target to poke now.
     
    #313 DeepThought, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, I mentioned events described in the Infinity core book/HSN3 and you couldn't be bothered to go actually read the fluff to go find out you're wrong. It's not a lie, you're just unwilling to read the resources that you're claiming to be an expert on.

    A word of advice: Don't opine on a topic that you've failed to educate yourself on. Go back and read the Infinity core book and get back to me when you're ready to have an actual discussion on it.
     
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  15. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    Nah, the TOHAA pioneered "uplifts". They exalt an entire species to sentience and servitorhood.
    It can be argued that the cetaceans used by nomads were already sentient (we just can't understand them) so apart from adding some cyber, they probably don't count, anyway. Nomads are just Mengele in his lab compared to them.
     
  17. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

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    Well to be fair to DeepThought (what a misnomer! :D ), I did point-blank refuse to "quote from the material", as I didn't need to. It was painfully obvious he (she? they) either didn't read the books, or has the reading comprehension of a plant. Many of their assumptions are directly contradicted at many, many places in the books*, at the level that no single quote makes sense as the whole story is completely different from what they imagine. Initially I assumed they didn't read the books, but the more I see of their writing, the more I think they just read the blurbs and filled in the rest with Ayn Rand fanfiction.

    Also, no, people on this forum are not obliged to provide "quotes and references" disproving their ridiculous fancies.

    *Reference: Infinity Campaign Paradiso. Infinity N3 Core book. Infinity Human Sphere N3. Infinity the Roleplaying Game Aleph Sourcebook. etc. etc etc.

    I'm very reluctant to post this, as a point of principle (they are asking me to do their work), but given the Aleph sourcebook is right next to me, I guess...
    upload_2019-8-19_1-16-40.png

    Also, a small comment on this one:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  18. jherazob

    jherazob Well-Known Member

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    @psychoticstorm, here we have a heavy thread derail, please take a look
     
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  19. Devil_Tiger

    Devil_Tiger Your Friendly Neighborhood Asura

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    That's a very charged way to put it, Dr Moreau would have been more apt i think.

    That aside you make a fair point.

    [Edit] Actually i take that back, thinking about it 10 second it's not a good point, but the thread derailed enough as it is.
     
    #319 Devil_Tiger, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
  20. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Two points:

    If we talk about Nomads innovations, we have to talk about stuff that was unheard of in the Human Sphere before.
    So if you consider all the alien high tech, then humans will have a hard time being innovative ever again...

    Using cetaceans as pilots because of their better spatial awareness (and giving them a voice humans can understand) still is innovative to me.
     
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