1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Aleph Lore FAQs

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Nemo No Name, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    848
    Well, maybe you should read it again, because I think you are wrong.

    They don't have to steal their stuff, they buy it from the nomads.
    The nomads are described as the most creative and innovative ones in the human sphere, and the black labs are paid by all factions for their research and developments. Well, maybe some of that stuff contradicts the other nation's ethics, but there are no universal ethics, and they still pay for the results, so they participate in and fund all this.

    To me this means the opposite: They want to their own thing.
    No clue why you think this means they steal others' ideas or technologies.

    ?
    Applying your real-world political opinion to a tabletop faction might not be the best idea...
     
    Yog.0 and chaos11 like this.
  2. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,928
    Likes Received:
    2,580
    Didn't you notice this is what he's been doing all this time? He's trying to applying his libertarian fantasies onto a decidedly non-libertarian lore. I find it exceptionally funny that he seems to denigrate the one faction which is even remotely libertarian. XD
     
    Sedral, Yog.0, PappaChu and 3 others like this.
  3. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    480
    OMG yeah, this.

    In Nomads if you don't "produce" you don't breathe. Its hard to get more libritarian/atlas shrugged than this?

    Corregidor are experts in zero g contruction and mining, available for hire to anyone with $$$.

    Bakunin does illegal/unethical research (black labs) and illegal/unethicical "enterainment (Vaudeville)," available for hire to anyone with $$$.

    Tunguska sells secrecey with its own darkweb Maya (Arachne), data vualts, and illegal AIs, available for hire to anyone with $$$.

    EDIT: If you really want to get bogged down into the nonsense of Randian philosphy the OTHER factions are looters because they create laws to make the things Nomads do illegal, instead of letting a market decide.

    But then if you think things like markets should determine the value of deformed fetuses and their use as robo assualt units, you to can subscribe to that philosophy.
     
    #283 natetehaggresar, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
    Yog.0, Devil_Tiger, Hecaton and 4 others like this.
  4. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2018
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    271
    Those damned deformed babies, demanding that they be saved for free - they need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps (through conversion to cybernetic assault units). We shouldn't have to stand for these freeloading unborn children!
     
    Yog.0, Solodice, Nemo No Name and 2 others like this.
  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,998
    Likes Received:
    3,983
    Yeah, the Nomads are actually pretty easy to read as a critique of Objectivist "philosophy" and "ethics" writ large.

    But none of this is actually relevant to ALEPH, so maybe move on (if necessary blocking the source of the distraction).
     
    chromedog likes this.
  6. DeepThought

    DeepThought Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2019
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    35
    @AdmiralJCJF is right, defending Nomad lore is what you do on the Nomads page.
    @daszul is fine in thinking Nomads do their own thing. There's no fluff to contradict it, and since infinity is a tactical warfare tabletop game and not an empire builder, wealth and resources can come from wherever the fluff writers want it to.

    My own case is sealed by the fact everyone else who has posted since has no real-world examples, indicating they are the only ones caught in a fantasy world. @Nemo No Name in particular has more than amply indicated he never understood the way the real world works, so I understand if he has to prop up his ideas on "magic" and "imagination" as he keeps calling it. His swiftness to use personal attacks are more than ample evidence of that.

    So on that note I reiterate my original message once more: Nations may or may not think Aleph is manipulating them, but they all share one common fear: getting by without it. I remember telling someone when they asked about what I saw in Aleph. My response was:
    "They are the faction that would frighten me most if they existed in real life."
     
    #286 DeepThought, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
    Dragonstriker and chromedog like this.
  7. DeepThought

    DeepThought Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2019
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    35
    @natetehaggresar , your summary is actually quite a good flip-summary of the Nomad Lore from what I remember, and yes, there is a valid argument Nomads survive on their space-cowboy style grit and hard work like the Ariadna. I expected more comments like yours and fewer like what was sent. It kinda saddens me so few people exist on this forum who can write in data like you.
    Given though, that I've never met a single person who was intent on "sticking it to the man" that built anything noteworthy or of consequence, I generally find the ideals mutually exclusive.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  8. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    618
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Yog.0, Hecaton, PappaChu and 3 others like this.
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,821
    Likes Received:
    4,667
    No more sick and twisted than PanO.

    You might want to read the fluff in the Infinity core book and HSN3 again, then. One of the more notable events described is an example of Nomad technology (in this case, their ability to assemble and develop space platforms better than anyone else in the sphere) being stolen by withholding payment for labor. You seem to not have a particularly good grasp on the fluff of the setting.


    Nope!

    You seem to have confused the Nomad nation with Dai-Nippon.

    Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. Nomads are fundamentally based on a Euro conception of leftist, labor, and anarchist movements, and don't have much in common with the American groups you're describing. Spend less time on t_d and /pol/ and you might learn something.

    You've been shown why this is wrong and as soon as you think you can get away with it you start saying it again. Back what you're saying up or shut up.
     
    #289 Hecaton, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  10. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,928
    Likes Received:
    2,580
    In general I agree with your post, but a small nitpick here. Nomads are not based on the leftist vision, rather a libertarian-capitalist one (and this means it's on the right side of the spectrum). Key part of the leftist movements is taking care of everyone, money be damned, and this is the exact opposite of Nomads
     
  11. Devil_Tiger

    Devil_Tiger Your Friendly Neighborhood Asura

    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    65
    I do find those remarks on the nomads rather surprising.

    IRL wise i find hardcore leftism, communism and all the myriad of ideologies spawned by postmodernist philosophies completely abhorrent. And i'm rather libertarian in general, but if i had to pick a faction to live, i'd pick the Nomads without a second thoughts.

    ALEPH is fundamentally authoritarian (like those ideologies previously mentioned, though of a different flavour, mommy do know best), no matter her hypothetically good and sincere intents, you do as expected or get corrected/removed.

    But Tunguska seems to be "AnCap: THE SPACE SHIP", Corregidor value hard work and cooperation for survival and Bakunin let you do whatever you want in your own module as long as you do not disrupt the relative peace in common space, and Bakunin's system of "social credit" is... Surprisingly acceptable (compared to that of a certain nation IRL). But what unite them is their desire for Liberty and self determination, away from the influence of ALEPH, for better or worse.

    Of course the Nomads have their issues, and there is many of them, but then so do all the factions in this game, there is no clear "good guy" in Infinity, i find those debates rather sterile/pointless, same for winging about echoes of real life bad things in some of the factions. That's the point, not always subtle, but still, a reminder that even your favourite faction will do bad, bad things.

    Hey! Look at me kicking open doors!
     
    jherazob and Golem2God like this.
  12. Devil_Tiger

    Devil_Tiger Your Friendly Neighborhood Asura

    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    65
    Oh sidenote on that, i think the left/right wing dichotomy is irrelevent in this context, i think it is more of a matter of Libertarian vs Authoritarian, what united the founders of the Nomad Nations was their desire to get away from ALEPH, and they put aside their political sensibilities in that regard to focus on what they had in common: their desire to be free from the Ultimate Authority.
     
    #292 Devil_Tiger, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    jherazob, Golem2God and csjarrat like this.
  13. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,014
    Likes Received:
    932
    Yeah, there's a certain sense of pragmatism needed when you're all resident on a ship that keeps you all alive. Can't castigate too many of the poor labourers else you all die in vacuum. Healthy mix of political views no doubt on those ships as you can't carry dead weight but also need hands on deck doing the job. There's the rose tinted glasses to view the rebels then there's the stuff they create away from prying eyes. Hollowmen are all kinds of fucked up!
     
    Devil_Tiger likes this.
  14. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    480
    One thing to keep in mind is that at extreme fringes of most any political philosophy you tend to bleed into the opposite extreme.

    If you are so libritarian that people can do ANYTHING they want, some people will eventually become so powerful they can make others and society do what that individual wants, which really starts sounding pretty authoritarian...
     
  15. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,393
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    And thus a circle is completed and continually loops around over and over again.
     
    jherazob likes this.
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,821
    Likes Received:
    4,667
    Well, I'd define right and left differently than you.
     
  17. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,928
    Likes Received:
    2,580
    [​IMG]

    I'm going to not continuie this discussion here, with either you or the horseshoe theory believers. :)
     
  18. DeepThought

    DeepThought Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2019
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    35
    You know, what gets me is how you all want to make this a political drive. My reference to the Antifa protests was my first insertion of political example, (unless you count my historical references), and yet every one of you here are all expecting a political banner to follow.

    Its true, a lot of infinity is gleaned from national politics. The beauty of Corvus & Co. design is they haven't made perfect political allusions, and have kept to a general cultural outlook not unique to any single nation, and have purposefully left the actual logistics out of the picture to let people's imaginations fill in the blanks. I could probably list the two ways most human sphere factions are viewed by both favorably and unfavorably.

    Pan-Oceana
    Favorably: A pious, European style nation on the crest of Innovation and Technology. The EU at its finest, with a little Catholicism thrown in for flavor.
    Unfavorably: Exploiters. A society of self-righteous zealots whose dissonant parties within are smeared by propaganda or induced to apathy as they learn to rely on its provision until they lack the resolve to change injustices.

    Yu Jing
    Favorably: The wisdom of the East given form with a strong collectivist imperative, where all parts contribute to a greater whole.
    Unfavorably: A nation run by overbearing tyrants who abuse or even sacrifice their people to get ahead politically.

    Ariadna:
    Favorably: Scottish Bravery, American Grit, & Russian Minimalism (among others). Hardcore colonials who have what it takes to make it on their own on the unforgiving frontier.
    Unfavorably: Overindependant, ungrateful rebels who stubbornly refuse to join the world stage (that is, the human sphere) even if it is to all humanity's benefit to work together.

    Nomads:
    Favorably: The survivors and dreamers who make do with little and refuse to be kept under the heel of governments by use of the resources others would shun or fear. People who reach for the alternatives others refuse to consider.
    Unfavorably: A nation founded on spite. Space Hippies and Anarchists who would rather "Stick it to the Man" even when they don't know what "The Man" is. They think anyone they target for their illegal activity is guilty.

    Aleph:
    Favorably: The pragmatism of commerce made manifest with the power of information and technology, (with a little Blade Runner theory thown in for flavor)
    Unfavorably: Authoritarian insiders symbolic of evil big businesses who make the nations that willingly rely on their services dance like puppets. (some might even argue they are "the Man".)

    O-12:
    Favorable: Its the UN or NATO in the future. A step towards a new world order of sorts.
    Unfavorable: It's the damn UN!

    Haqqislam: (I'm not touching this one. I've yet to make sense of this faction apart from wishful thinking on someone's part, as my study of the religion indicates "Humanist Islam" is an oxymoron.)

    I noted earlier that I don't see many of these factions as sustainable, but I don't have to in order to enjoy that it makes a good wargame.
     
    #298 DeepThought, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
    Dragonstriker and Golem2God like this.
  19. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    618
    What does any of this have to do with Aleph again?
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,821
    Likes Received:
    4,667
    I actually find a lot of Infinity's political and historical allusions to be clumsy, honestly. And so far it's sidestepped a lot of the ways that O-12 doesn't make sense and is incredibly tyrannical. The Concilium Convention was signed by Yu Jing after they won a war against Russia - why would they sign something which made them basically give up their sovereignty when they had just *won* a war? Something doesn't add up.

    Anyway, your comments earlier about Nomads being a certain way were disproved pretty thoroughly; backtracking to "each nation has good and bad parts" is fine, but you gotta understand that you were straight up wrong.