Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Nemo No Name, Jul 11, 2018.
@Wolf That was a bit hard to read. Must have been a bit hard to type out.
People still type out text from books?
Scan and OCR that stuff - so much easier.
For a whole book, sure. For a paragraph or two, type that out, so much easier.
I agree, there is no rule that says a copy cannot surpass the original- assuming all aspects CAN be copied. If you believe the concept of a soul is superstition and that human souls do not exist; that one is simply the sum of their intellect, then yes, being downloaded into an easily repaired or replaced mechanical body of superior attributes would yield a copy that surpasses the original.
However if there is something that cannot be duplicated about man (like a soul), then the whole argument changes. Therefore if you copied the neural network of someone who believes man has- or rather is a soul, and who only has a body, then that man's duplicate would also have that outlook imprinted on them and would have to:
A) convince themselves the person they were duplicated from was wrong, and there are no souls and they are "still the same person". -or
B) accept they are neither the equal nor the duplicate of the original (lacking a soul which transcends any creation), but are instead a creation patterned closely after this being's body and mind (the things that can be duplicated).
My PHONE can do a "scan & OCR" these days.
I know how to do it and I'm a f*cking fossil.
... are we still talking about my apparently copy-typing an excerpt from a Richard Morgan book?
Because I made it up in the style of Richard Morgan, at least as I remember it. Just saying.
This one has always bothered me about science fiction. Who says a mechanical body would be superior? Or easily repaired? I think a lot of science fiction writers underestimate how awesome the human body is. It is capable of self-repair, can fuel itself on a wide variety of things that can be found lying around, and is capable of self-upgrading! My brain has been using the same operating system for decades, and is still going strong! My body has so far outlasted every mechanical device I have purchased, except the ones built in the last decade, and I have no doubt that I will out last those too. The best Science fiction authors will usually acknowledge that the beyond-human cybernetic enhancements come with a trade off with more frequent and expensive maintenance.
or C) They believe the soul can not be duplicated, but can be transferred. Right or wrong. we have been told that this is the prevailing belief of the residents of the human sphere. Logically there must be some groups in the infinity setting that do not believe this, but such people would not get a cube installed. So I think existential crisis from cube transfer, would probably be a rare thing, and likely there are therapy options for such people. The occasional mental breakdown would probably still happen, but would not be frequent.
In fact, you are constantly upgrading it by using it.
C) think that it got its own soul, just as every new live gets/has a soul of its own.
Do you think a clone has a soul? Well, a clone still is only a copy.
Why does a baby has a soul, when it is just a combination of the copied patterns of its parents?
Isn't every higher life form just the combination of the copies of its parents DNAs?
Is the soul of a child a copy of its patents' souls?
Is only a part copied, and both parts combined form the new born's soul?
Or is a new soul emerging with every new life?
You see, it's not that easy...
None of the metaphysics really matter for infinity though, given that:
There seems to be no discernible difference in a clone cube to the real person as long as at most one active clone is present
All spiritual authorities claim that within their doctrine the soul or whatever intangible essence does indeed transfer over
Thus whilst both of these might be wrong in practice, nobody alive in the setting can discern or report whether thats the case thus for all intents and porpoises(blame the nomads) in setting there are little to no doubts about soul transfer.
To dip my toes in metaphysics a bit anyways- who is to say they can't move the souls? Clearly, the god or gods of whatever you believe in (excluding bhuddism here because their souls return regardless unless they achieve nirvana) can move souls, otherwise afterlifes would not function. Who is to say he/they/spaghetti used means that arent beyond mortal ability? And that people just have found a way to duplicate that. Whether that's due to their own ability or a lucifer/prometheus is not very relevant to the discussion, that just depends on your religion's ideas on personal agency/archsin/free will.
I agree with this train of thought. Bio-enhanced soldiers/enemies can be even worse than machines depending on what upgrades have been given them. However, the idea that seems to play out the most in sci-fi is that Bio-enhancments can be more difficult to control compared to Mech-enhancements. We see this in series like Resident Evil where the viruses' seem to have the tendency to "overstep boundaries" set by their creators due to being "programed" to continue evolving. Which in turn causes the lifeform to become "uncontrollable" because no boundaries or limits are set in stone unlike other species in creation.
There is a difference between being flexible in environments, something all species have to a certain extent, and evolving. But sci-fi science has a slanted viewpoint that evolving is better than having a bio-unit being anchored to a set form and using it's talents to persevere over obstacles in it's way. Evolving lifeforms are only a matter of time before they become danger to themselves and the environments they are in.
In the Infinity RPG, regeneration and other bio upgrades put extra stress on the users body gameplay-wise leading to a burnout of sorts. Likewise some mech upgrades can be hacked. So it depends on which tradeoff the user thinks is best. You have to take the advantages and disadvantages choose which set or sets is right for you.
As a formally practicing Buddhist myself, I'd just like to say this [the notion that Buddhists believe in actual reincarnation] doesn't represent my beliefs, and is probably misleading with respect to other Buddhist traditions too.
Reincarnation is certainly part of the larger Buddhist tradition, and is continually referred to in the Koans from my own, but nothing in that Zen tradition or my practice ever led me to think those references should be be taken literally.
Spoiler: Hajuko's Fox - a Koan about reincarnation
The following is a curious koan from The Gateless Gate (compiled by Japanese Zen founder Mumon in the 13th Century) that refers to reincarnation. The old man claims to have been a human being many years ago, but since when he's been trapped in the body of a fox. Typically of Zen koans, neither the fact of actual bodily reincarnation, nor the meaning of the koan itself is readily apparent.
Going by your statement, I'd say that this same difference in thought would apply to Buddhists in Infinity's current timeline. Makes me wonder how many different groups from each surviving major religions don't view the concept of soul transference or reincarnation into a new body through the Cube process is factual? I bet it would be interesting to find out.
Hello. Is this the right place to ask this question?
I am new to the Aleph, and my local gaming club is starting a small campaign mid April, with PanO fighting the Yu Jing (some sort of large invasion on a planet named Svalarheima). I sided with the Yu Jing, not knowing too much about how buddy-buddy Aleph and PanO are, so I have to be fighting them (among others). I am playing the Operations SubSection, and AFAIK the only Aleph player in this gaming club. My question/request is as follows:
I need an in-game / lore reason to side with the Yu Jing and fight the PanO as the OSS. Can anyone help me cook up one?
It's a fine a place as any.
Here's my short take: Aleph has determined that greatest benefit in this case is helping Yu Jing, and at the same time, it can ensure that useful resources on PanO side are not damaged during the fighting.
You don't need to worry about it, ALEPH works with Yu Jing nearly as much as with PanOceania.
If the setting for the campaign is a PanOceanian offensive then you just explain that ALEPH doesn't want one power to dominate the planet, if it's a Yu Jing offensive then you do the opposite and explain that ALEPH wants the power balance between the two nations shifted towards Yu Jing and away from the (current) status quo of PanOceanian dominance.
Thank you very much, both of you. I got some (playful) comments from some of the players at the club regarding my choice of allegiance, but both of your reasons at least gives me some confidence in not turning either faction (or the players!) against me. :)
It is also possible that Aleph is supporting both sides. Having agents on both sides of the conflict gives greater situational awareness. Aleph may not care which side wins the conflict, because either outcome could be used for some greater goal. However Aleph might want to closely monitor the conflict, so that if necessary it can intervene to prevent the conflict from escalating to disastrous levels. Your unit might be fully committed to supporting the Yu Jing claim, but other Aleph units may be committed to supporting the PanO claim, and after the battle the aspects can share a virtual drink in the virtual bar of their choice.
If any of the other players give you playful comments about your allegience choices, just tell them that their limited meat-brains couldn't handle the psychohistorical math involved in Aleph's decision making.
Admiral JCJF makes an excellent point that is useful for making Aleph work in multi-faction engagements. The experience my gaming team tends to have is Aleph does not benefit from any one faction achieving political or military dominance. Therefore, unless Yu Jing is 'shreddin' it and winning every time, Aleph is likely to assist the faction in some discreet fashion as the second runner-up. Keep in mind while people like NemoNoName may talk like Aleph is a government entity, it actually better resembles a militarized version of Google, Amazon, or PayPal (all hail Elon! lol)
Ironically, there can be aleph forces on both sides of a Pano vs Yu Jing conflict. Aleph's goals are unknowable and it has so many agents almost everywhere that its practically guaranteed they will come into conflict with one another. For example, NCA vs ISS could have Aleph forces fighting each other.
One can only conclude that the conflict itself must serve Aleph's ends in some way. Another way to look at it is that its human nature to have intra-species conflicts so there may well be no overarching goal for Aleph per say, the AI may just be letting humans be humans. And sometimes when a crisis boils over its best to let two sides fight it out then try the impossible and maintain eternal peace.
I think Aleph is more along the lines of the A.I. in MSG2 & thinks of us/humanity more along the lines of the video below.