1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Aleph Lore FAQs

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Nemo No Name, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,864
    Likes Received:
    2,957
    He is the only one deserving of the honor. All things were created by Him, for Him & through Him (Jesus). That alone is reason enough to use reverence with Capital letters.
     
    DeepThought and stevenart74 like this.
  2. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,864
    Likes Received:
    2,957
    One thing that has interested me about cube resurrection is that Humanity mostly treats the resurrected as the actual person when it is just a Lhost with the memories of the deceased. Since religious people would or should understand that the spirit of man cannot be copied and the connection to the physical plane is separated upon death why do they still treat these enhanced clones as their actual loved ones arisen? It makes no sense that Humanity willing goes along with the charade of a person "coming back" from the dead in this manner. Seems like they allow themselves to believe a beautiful lie that it's actually their departed friend/loved one instead of a body double with the deceased's recollection. There is no guarantee that the clone will act like the person they are imitating.

    I hope we get some more insight into how deep Aleph's hands are in the process of resurrection. How secure is this operation? The RPG gives events where cubes have another person's memories besides your own and a double of yourself is walking around somewhere. Two forms of identity thief with scarier implications then cases we have today. That clone could very well ruin your life be acting or committing things you'd never do while having another person's memories in your head is a terrible breach of privacy.

    What are your, if any, thoughts on this?
     
    stevenart74 likes this.
  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,532
    Likes Received:
    4,594
    The unified Christian Church and Haqqislam both affirm that the Soul is preserved and transferred. It's implied (though not outright stated) that the same position has been taken by Buddhists and Hindu as well.

    As to the duplicate thing? Apart from the random character generation events it seems like the process of transferring is actually very safe, as long as ALEPH is involved. If you go to Bakunin... well, you get what you get.
     
    chromedog and Nemo No Name like this.
  4. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,864
    Likes Received:
    2,957
    My feeling was that Aleph would make sure those incidents were few and far inbetween. Those situations would not be flattering for the process' reputation.
    If by soul they mean memories then that is true but as for the actual person that is impossible. One example that comes to my mind was from a video game called Soma form the creators of Amensia: Dark Descent. When the character was transferred into another body it would create clone. The newer "character" would then continue on leaving the original version of himself behind trapped in the former host body.
     
    stevenart74 likes this.
  5. jherazob

    jherazob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,071
    Likes Received:
    1,657
    This is very, very similar to the transporter debates in Star Trek, to the point that the saying went like "Kirk dies in every episode". If you believe in a soul, these debates become dramatically more complex, because technology isn't supposed to be able to transfer souls. I do think in Infinity the debate was decided in favor of the soul transfer automatically happening without human intervention for all the religious factions because God is Good (i could be wrong here, don't cite me, anyone has actual sources about this?)
     
    AdmiralJCJF and Golem2God like this.
  6. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,164
    Likes Received:
    2,836
    1) SOMA is not Infinity.
    2) Soul is a mythological concept with no basis in science. Writing crossover fanfic is great, but please try and understand that your crossover isn't everyones, and more importantly, doesn't tell you anything about the situation in Infinity itself.
    3) Infinity posits that Cube is sufficient to record personality as well as memories, thus enabling continuation of the individual - and also copying of the individual. You can explain it however you will with souls, but I don't remember Infinity lore discussing that as an actual concept (i.e. soul exists in Infinity universe). Only mention of a soul within Infinity I remember is in NeoVatican or Haqq or some other religion proclaiming it is safeguarded through resurrection process.
    4) As for religions accepting the resurrection process, that is a quite well understood process. Religions will at first fight any change in society, and then switch to claim they always embraced it. Especially if you give them control over that change.
     
    Death, chromedog and AdmiralJCJF like this.
  7. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,864
    Likes Received:
    2,957
    True. I just used the clip to illustrate what I was thinking.
    That is the most likely possibility. The religious institutions would embrace the idea if they had control over it.
    This is sort of where I'm coming from. Technology can't copy something spiritual but the physical attributes such as memories and personality would be possible to transfer.
     
  8. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    876
    So there are three terms involved that need to be clarified:
    - Soul: As far as I remember the fluff does not talk very much about it, but I think we all agree that the sioul is something immaterial that is something different from the memory. The connection to the personality is debateable.
    - Memory: To me that is just the collection of aquired information. Thou in human brains it is a hazy thing, as research implies that our memory is altered every time it is remembered, as the remembered information is altered by the current circumstances and then saved again.
    - Personality: Well, a diffuse thing. More than just memory, but to many the centerpice of what defines as as a person and individual.

    Why should a single soul be bound to a single body?
    Is it linked to a single personality?
    Then it will be linked to the body that that personality inhabits.
    But do people with multiple personality have multiple souls?
    Or is it bound to the body, the 'birth host'?
    Well then it should be lost with the death of the body.
    What about the stored cubes that wait for a resurrection? Are those stored souls as well?

    So to me, what is transfered is the personality, along with the memory.
    So that may lead to the conclusion that the soul is transfered as well.
    But as far as I know, even in the future there is no way to measure a soul, so it is still up to believe.
     
    AdmiralJCJF and Golem2God like this.
  9. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    624
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    The idea of cubes isn't a new thing. It's a direct copy of stacks from Altered Carbon and ideas of the stack (how it could be used and abused) is further explored in settings like Eclipse Phase or with digitized consciousness like the Bobiverse.

    SOMA deals with the idea of the continuation of consciousness and it is something that has been argued with stacks/cubes/digitized consciousness before. When the original consciousness dies/transfers does that consciousness continue when its inserted into a new body thanks to the cube/stack or is it just a copy that's picking up where the original left off? For the most part the copy will live its life out like it was the original (built off the experiences, memories, and personality that made the original the original). SOMA says it's a copy (as seen with the final scene in the game). Eclipse Phase and the AC universe says it's copy as well.

    What does Infinity say? For me since it's using similar concepts and ideas where the original consciousness is not downloaded into the cube/stack upon death and then you get to a new body and then continue on. Instead the cube/stack is a copy. Solodice 1 is gone but Solodice 2 is living life like he was Solodice 1 and no one would be the wiser. That's just my opinion though.
     
  10. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,864
    Likes Received:
    2,957
    I think that is a good ideal of the effect of cube transferring. It is basically how I think exactly on the subject. You certainly explained it more elegantly than I could currently.
     
    stevenart74 likes this.
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    At least in some settings, the soul, that which actually makes you sophont, is a software object. Those settings can even point to the exact part of your mind-state where it is. But that soul is not your memories.

    Somewhat scarily, at least one of those settings includes the ability to rip the logos, the soul, right out of your mind-state. But Kim Jong Unstable without a logos is actually incapable of not being KJU, so that horrifying idea doesn't get used very often. It does have useful predictive value, however, so many intelligence agencies build sub-sophont, soulless, models of many leaders.





    Dunno where Infinity comes down on this, it's certainly never been made explicit.


    If everyone who knew you before Resurrection still treats Solo2 as being Solo1, including the law, does it really matter?

    You think you're you, everyone around you treats you as you.
     
  12. jherazob

    jherazob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,071
    Likes Received:
    1,657
    [​IMG]
     
    ev0k likes this.
  13. PappaChu

    PappaChu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    56
    So there is a lot of similarities between how resurrection works in Dan Simmons' Hyperion series and in Infinity. In Hyperion, the Catholic church becomes vast and powerful again through the use of a device which allows "resurrection." Only they can offer you life after death (in the form of this resurrection) and regain a lot of followers and crusaders because of it. They preach that soul is preserved through the resurrection process, and only when you die the "true death" (where for whatever reason you can't be ressed) does it depart and go to heaven.

    There's a lot of cross over between the church and AI in Hyperion and Infinity. I doubt it's ever been made explicit, but I imagine the religions incorporate whatever happens into their core beliefs, especially since it's not like you could really prove otherwise
     
  14. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,532
    Likes Received:
    4,594
    To be fair, while I understand and appreciate the theological and philosophical debates surrounding the subject (as previously mentioned I literally teach Ethics, Philosophy and Theology) it's not really an open debate in the Infinity universe.

    All of the established faiths have accepted that resurrection via cube transfer allows the passage of the soul from the original body to the new lhost. Even those schismatic groups which reject other aspects of the major faiths seem to accept this tenant.

    So, while there may be some small minority groups which reject the idea of soul transference (amongst the atechs of PanOceania, for example) this is a very tiny portion of the population.

    References to other media are interesting, but this is an answered question in the Infinity universe. Maybe don't confuse it in what is intended to be an informational thread.
     
  15. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    907
    I am slow to catch up, but awesome discussion! Keep it coming! My only complaint, too many smart people in this thread, answering difficult questions before I can show off my own brilliance!
     
    jherazob likes this.
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    Pretty sure that Hyperion is one of the explicit inspirations for Infinity.



    I was going to suggest that the Observance (Custodiers, Healers, Moiras, Sin-Eaters) was one of them, but they all have Cubes... Weird.
     
  17. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    907
    I think that any group that rejects the idea of soul transference, and by extension resurrection, would likely be relegated to minority power. In a not-quite-post-scarcity economy like Infinity, knowledge is power. Knowledge takes time to accumulate. Resurrected individuals are potentially immortal, and carry their accumulated knowledge with them (not to mention their financial investments). I think any group that voluntarily removes themselves from this system would have individuals that would be less and less competitive on the influential stage, and would be relegated to a non-issue in few generations. In the real world, their are a number of societies that have rejected modern technology, and none of those societies are influencers on the global economy.

    Lore question: I have not read as deeply into the lore as I would like. (too many other responsibilities vying for my time.) Does infinity address the issue of cubes granting near immortality? (a la the problems in Altered Carbon.) Or does the quantum-entanglement-magic contain a hardcoded expiration date?
     
    jherazob and Golem2God like this.
  18. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,294
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    I thought the Observance were anti-AI, rather than anti-cube
     
    jherazob, toadchild and Golem2God like this.
  19. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    624
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Cubes grant near immortality as long as the cube and any backups are still around (just like stacks in AC). The only limiting factor to resurrections in Infinity is the silk (which is very expensive) that is needed for it to work properly and the cost of the Lhost to put into. Usually this means for your average Joe he is waiting in the lottery to be resurrected because he can't afford to pay for it out of pocket. For Mr. Silk Lord of Hypercorp CEO though, and exploring already similar ideas/themes, they can keep on living and being resurrected as long as they have the money to do so.

    This.

    Also, vets that fight against Aleph are probably hard to come by. So you want to keep them around as long as possible. That and the Nomads can do their own resurrections outside of the purview of Aleph.
     
    jherazob, Golem2God and stevenart74 like this.
  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,532
    Likes Received:
    4,594
    Yeah, they actually also support soul transference.

    Yeah, exactly.

    It's outside the remit of this thread, but only kinda. The fact that super-wealth accumulates for those who can access resurrection is a noted thing, but cash-for-resurrection isn't a 100% surety, so it's not quite the Meths issue.
     
    jherazob likes this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation