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Aleph in N4

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    How about Argus? Big dog TAG that comes with a certain MIA hero.
     
  2. Anansi

    Anansi Achilles' Thigh Oiler

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    I think we're all missing the obvious answer.

    If Steel Phalanx is going to get a TAG then it needs to be the Trojan Horse. Give it Impersonation and call it a day.
     
  3. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Inferior?
     
  4. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    I think all faction is good, Achille is a whole faction strength but one thing.. Post humain are way too efficiency on some scenarios. For example, A 10 pts 2xSmg NWI FO is really too little risk versus what it can achieved on firefight or other gunning and staying alive mission style. In N2 G:jumper were not able to be all active when AROing which was an heavy mecanic to play (a little boring) but that competence had some weakness.. now you have basicaly models for a way too much point reduction for what they bring they need to be more expensive (I think that Mk5 should be 15 to 20 pts - still cheap for what it brings). I think OSS and aleph genralist need that balance where Steel phalanx is on a good spot
     
  5. VonKrolok

    VonKrolok New Member

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    Aemaru I think you are correct on most things, still I believe that the sap of a faction is variety and combination possibilities. At the moment the low model count together with the limited (and obvious) amount of combinations doesn't make ALEPH a particularly fun game. The introduction of OSS brought a big boost to a faction that was a bit stale. Still more can be (and should be) done in order to bring it on par with other factions.

    Other games have the major flaw to put all eggs in one or two factions (most noticeably you-know-which) leaving the rest of the games lackluster at best. It is in the interest of CB to actually have a game that doesn't have an immediate "go to" faction because that brings people to build more factions to try different game play styles.

    That being said Pan-O, Nomad, Ariadna, Haq and Yu-Qing have their specific game styles, but they're all humans so effectively no huge surprise. Tohaa has suffered and now it's being swallowed by the Mercs (I was a bit disappointed by the closing of the Daedalus wormhole... like in the case of a too well too know referendum it's a clear admission of failure to handle things, but hey maybe they though they overstretched themselves with too many factions and a reorganization was due... fair enough). Combined Army (despite my affiliation) is in a very good spot, always has been. ALEPH in my opinion is the kind of game that one should not expect, think about it: a faction ruled by an AI authorised and controlled by the O-12 that has no breathing human in it. Potentially it is the most sci-fi faction of the whole game (and the one that screams dystopia the most, that recalls books like "Do android..." "Transcendence" and all that literature and cultural underground). I think this is reason alone for CB to put some effort in shaping it with that idea in mind.

    Some ideas were truly clever: 3 main backgrounds to tap into namely Vedic mythology, Hebrew flavour and Ancient Greek mythology/history. On top of that: sure there is only one TAG (big ass mini so people like them...) but effectively there are more with the Asura, Achilles v1 and v2 and they are human sized so you can hide them (nifty). Still when it gets down to army composition what is there? Going ASS? then it's Enomotarcos galore. Going OSS? Then it's Dakini and Post-humans galore... season the rest of the army list with whatever is left.

    I think diversity is the keyword here: ALEPH has one of the best cheerleader in the game, but it's one... I could do with some more even if they don't hit the mark of the best, maybe with some variety in terms of skills. A tropper unit that is good at shooting (relatively high BS), a trooper unit that is better at infiltration (camo or infiltration), a trooper unit that is good at info-war and counter intelligence all equipped with weapons to help in their task. If you think about it an AI won't design a trooper that is good at everything (Dakini are specialists as well with the paramedic...) but rather chassis that are optimised for the task they need to perform and lackluster for anything else. In that CB has been a tiny bit lazy (no offence guys, I love you and the game ;)) with the faction that gave them, on paper, the lowest amount of limitations in what they could come up with.

    I think that CB should approach N4 for ALEPH with just one motto in mind: Be brave, be bold!

    - Multiple configuration units: why the hack giving transformers to other factions like Nomads and Yu-Qing... an AI should have the highest chance at developing something like that
    - At least another sectorial: the fluff could anything, an AI can get inspiration from horror literature for example (imagine what could be called a vampire: a unit that attacks only in CC, but when it does it heals wounds so either NWI or 2W dogged... I'm wildly speedballing here)
    - Diversify: Post-human game is probably the most characteristic of the faction so take a look at that with a pinch of salt (don't be excessive in either direction... be moderate) and build from there... make more characteristic plays of that kind
    - Unleash your creativity: here you can do whatever you want! without limits to the creativity... I know you have it and by the bunches

    ... and that's all folks ^_^
     
    El tito Zylito likes this.
  6. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    @VonKrolok I think, you’ve missed the point, that Aleph is the utopian AI, while the EI is the dystopic one. In the same way space vampires are a feature of CA, while posthumans are alephs shtick. Consider what this means for theme and flavour.

    I for one like, that the game doesn’t grab at the evil big brother trope. Its much more in line with universes like Appleseed. It embraces the future and technology. Leaves idiocy to humans, where it belongs.

    Also I like, how they leave the hyperspecialized cheap troops with other factions. Aleph is not an army as much as it is clandestine black ops. No need to send in the SAS, when you can send in James Bond and do better. It fits the theme - even though it might not fit or be the most optimum playstyle.

    When it comes to list building, you’ll see that this goes for any faction, that certain troops/compositions are preferred. This doesn’t mean that others aren’t viable - even for sectorial players. Its not an Aleph problem. Few players challenge list conventions.
     
  7. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    The EI is pretty openly self interested first, but also largely is hands off of controlling sentient subjects day to day lives, so long as fractaa are to be believed... Though I would agree it's pretty openly evil.

    I'm not sure the fluff allows us to definitively say the Aleph is a benevolent AI. Certainly fluff around their covert wars with Nomads and the Blackhand point to a possibility that Aleph had its own designs for humanity. (Whether that is true or not is up for debate). Aleph even if Aleph is also "bad" she certainly has no reason to act against humanity at this point, the EI is too great a shared threat...

    Anyway I enjoy Aleph because of her ambiguous motives...
     
  8. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Been running steel phalanx in a campaign paradiso run through, have to say, finding them really boring now.
    List building falls into a really predictable pattern of "modules", insert myrm module, insert Thora module, add msv2 and a solo piece. You're pretty much at 300/6 right there.
    On top of that, the modules feel samey because of the dependence on named characters.

    Some good tools and some good pieces but they're well overdue a lick of paint in the design dept.
     
  9. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    I do absolutely get where you're coming from - SP feels like it has much less build variety than other factions because we do so often rely on the same building blocks. That being said, try occasionally giving double myrmidon teams a go instead of one myrmidon + one thorakite, it'll at least add a bit more variety.
     
  10. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Yeah I know, just often need the points and the thoras have better swc guns (and a place to bunker the specops in the campaign)
     
  11. VonKrolok

    VonKrolok New Member

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    Don't get me literal there, I was speedballing. The core of the message is what can be done with ALEPH and hasn't been done yet. Along the line of what you say I don't see a "good guy"-counterpart in ALEPH as opposed to CA (what is the answer of the AI to EI unit for unit) because there isn't a direct correspondence which I believe can be expected as soon as anyone from the Human Sphere faces the Combined Army (adaptive behavior of the AI). Lines are blurred also: depending on point of view the position of the good-guys shifts from faction to faction as it should be in a universe driven by personal interest.

    Do you blame them? I think the following messages speak on their own: I don't know if people challenge list composition because I don't know what they do in their private games. I can only see tournaments and public lists. I for one tried some varied lists, but there is a reason one goes for sectorials (fireteams) and in the SP there is no option, there is a bit more variety in OSS but it's not great.

    If we are to embrace the idea of the AI being the "mirror image with inverted colors" of the EI then I must say that the AI falls behind missing 1 sectorial and missing counters to certain strategies. Missing variability of units and with it adaptability.

    When I started playing Infinity I went for ALEPH without even thinking. The game is balanced so I can choose the army that I like the most visually. This is the power of Infinity (along with the continuous interest building campaign carried out by Bostria and the creators that keep on adding units and background every step of the way). I think in this respect the real challenge CB is facing in N4 is -with what they have at the moment- try and being the balance of factions on par across the board: 2 players starter sets with various combinations (not just Pan-OvNomads) so that all options are taken into consideration. This isn't difficult for them since armies are released fully on the Army software. The toughest job is to actually bring all factions on the same unit count because that inevitably rhymes with sacrificing the factions that are considered "top" at the moment for the sake of factions that are "less" played. That can probably be achieved with faction dedicated teams possibly with the help of the player base(?). Much like they have WarCors now, they can start "recruiting" people to play test new units depending on their experience in said factions.

    Cheerio!
     
    #131 VonKrolok, Sep 16, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  12. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Not a great variety ?

    Look at Vohlere 's lists here:
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...13-14-apr-cardiff-uk.25349/page-2#post-242147

    And tell me these look like the common OSS lists with only a few variations.
     
  13. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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  14. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    It looks like a yadu core 3 + a deva/CSU duo and a lone dakini specialist for objective runs. But the main point was: it's totally not the standard "dakini core + posthumans + nagas" thing we usually see.
     
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  15. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I like the flexibility for sure
     
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  16. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    On this, OSS has many possibilities just with deva/CSU wildcards (that can duo with each others), it's really nice.
     
    DukeofEarl likes this.
  17. VonKrolok

    VonKrolok New Member

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    I agree: when we had no choice but play "dual Enomotarcos Myrm/Thora/season with heroes to taste" or Vanilla kinda of lists this is a much needed breath of fresh air. Inside the faction (eg: in a vacuum) it's definitely some diversity over the copy/paste/net-lists. Still how does that compare to other factions? Let's compare with a sectorial that just came out: Tunguska

    Fireteam Core:
    Grenzer (with interventor option)
    Securitate
    Hollow men (with Haris and REM... much like with the Rudra)
     
  18. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    OSS also has three fireteam core options, and plenty of interesting haris options when you start talking about Rudras , Asuras and Deva/Yadu crossovers. OSS is in a great place right now - what I'd really like to see is a few more options for solo pieces in Steel Phalanx in the 30-50 point rangeband. Something like a Greek version of the Betatrooper would be cool - a tough specialist who can hold zones; Alternately they could expand on the posthuman theme that aleph has going on - you could make a pretty dope "hydra" themed unit out of them.
     
  19. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    What i meant by quoting Vohlere 's lists is that OSS is not limited to "dakini core + posthumans". In fact it is perfectly playabe without any core.

    For core teams, we have:
    _ dakini (with up to 2 devas, can have a samekh FTO, can be backed by apsara) => it's already a very versatile core
    _ yadus: seen as too expensive for many, but it's still playable. While it's a rather offensive link, it offers many options (HFT for defense NCO HMG for offense, AHD/KHD, many drop bears and MULTI rifles ...).
    _ devas: i'm personnaly not convinced by the full deva over the dakini/deva mixed link, i think it is lacking on long range options, but it can be very potent if you want to run the "no hackable" card

    But as said before, we don't have to play with a full core.
    For haris / partial core teams, we have a great range of pure and mixed options. That plus our haris profiles tends to be very good by themselves and don't really feel like tax. So haris Deva, Yadu, mixed Yadu/Deva/Rudra, Asura/Devas ...

    Another thing, we can also play OSS without real fireteams, just for the availability of some troops. For example the AVA3 nagas/dasyus + Dart + superior infiltration Andromeda for those who want to play massive infiltration. Vanilla can do this, but not to the same extend OSS can.

    I really think OSS brings a lot to vanilla, not only on quality (ie: 5 bodies fireteams) but also on variety.
     
    DukeofEarl likes this.
  20. VonKrolok

    VonKrolok New Member

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    Anything is possible: need to spend more points? ask a mate to play a 500pts... When Pan-O, Nomads, Ariadna, Haqq and Ju-Qing were playing core teams galore with BS bonuses to turn even the ugliest grunt into a marksman we were sucking it up with Enomotarcos... sure you can bring as many as you want to the table, which obviously resulted in spamming Enomotarcos and due to points and SWC limitations the dual fireteam Myrm/Thora became a thing. Now that we can run a core... oh but we can decide not to... I don't want to sound disrespectful, but it is a bit of a hilarious comment.

    That being said it's true that