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Aleph in N4

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Member

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    I also want smart grenade launchers on Myrmidons, that is in the RPG Aleph book and I want them so much.
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I wouldn't mix those, least the Nomads demand their Servants to be a threat against an Avatar.... XD
     
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  3. MerloyJenkils

    MerloyJenkils Well-Known Member

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    PLEASE DON'T TAKE AWAY MY PROXIES :sob::sob::sob::sob:
     
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  4. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Member

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    It exist in the RPG Aleph book. As well as smart multi pistols, smart multi sniper rifle and Val ammo that put a person in a targeted state. There is also the MK 0 posthuman which has gekko pads so a climbing plus posthuman. A combat remote based on the Rudra with a smart grenade launcher and smart multi sniper rifle and targeting ammo on various skirmishers would be cool.
     
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  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Similar lists yes, but I have a feeling this is more to do with most SP players not going going any further than twin Myrmidon teams and every hero they jam into those links. How is it impossible to get above 10 orders? I find it hard not to end with 14+ order lists even with 2 Myrmidon teams.

    DTWs and mines are the worst for this two of the most spammed things invalidate the main defensive measure of the army.
     
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  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Oh, it is possible. You need to grab a Thorakite 4man link (thrasimedes mandatory...), a single 4man Myrmidon Fireteam, 2 Netrods, 2 Baggagebots, 2 FlashPulsebots...

    La lista! (R1176)
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    MACHAON Lieutenant Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 38)
    PHOENIX Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 40)
    MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)
    MYRMIDON Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 31)
    ZAYIN Rebot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    PROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    DALETH Rebot Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)
    AGÊMA Marksman MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    THRASYMEDES (Fireteam: Enomotarchos) Submachine gun, Light Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 30)
    THORAKITES Engineer Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    THORAKITES (Forward Observer, 360º Visor) Submachine gun, Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    THORAKITES (Forward Observer, 360º Visor) Submachine gun, Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    NETROD Electric Pulse. (0 | 4)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    BTW, this list is over 3 years old... (also, not mine).
     
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  7. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    That's what I mean It is possible, quite easy to do and viable. It just seems to me that SP is the victim of severe groupthink to a detrimental level,
    in that it can ONLY be played as an LI army.
     
  8. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, you've got thorakitai and netrods that are on the cheaper end of things. It's doable, it's just that netrods are immobile and thorakitai are slow so there's Def a question of opportunity cost. It's not great at any kind of mission where you've got lots of ground to cover and lots of buttons to push
     
  9. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    The Netrods are also only 4 points, do you really care if theyre immobile? Yes the Thorakitai are slow but they are one of the few good fire support platforms with the Feuerbach and HMG, so they don't really need to be fast when they are either A) doing a Move and Shoot or B) hanging back and throwing EXP rounds down range in ARO as some friendly guns for the myrm team to hide under.

    I've often found that a Machoan lead Myrmidon team with spitfire is more than enough to cover ground and press buttons, but if you need to split up you have stuff like Ekdromoi (even if the AHD has god awful weapons it can still get the job done), Scylla (Who also authorises REMs) and the Infiltration version of Thrasymedes if you have Hector or Nesaie with the Thorakitai.

    Even if you ignore the Thorakitai it is still possible to hit a good amount of orders with twin Myrmidon teams and still be effective.
     
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  10. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Yeah I'm not saying that it isn't possible, just saying there's an opportunity cost.
    The thoras have the good guns but are slow. If they've got to work to draw their long range angles, you'll feel their slowness.
    Propping them with hector to free up thras is a big opportunity cost too, he doesn't add much to a Thora team apart from a stack of points for zone scoring. That only really leaves Nessy, who pushes up the swc cost of that team hugely if you're wanting the Feuerbach or HMG for long range fighting
     
    #50 csjarrat, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  11. VonKrolok

    VonKrolok New Member

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    I wouldn't mind another sectorial with a completely different flavor. The "Jewish" names of some REMs may hint to some highly covert sort-of-Mossad flavor. Also: some armies have units with multiple configurations... why not give something "better" to a faction that doesn't have the weight of the flash to deal with... how about: Rakshasa units that may have some weird stuff going on like (alternatively):

    - multiple arms configuration
    - multiple body configurations
    - impersonation profile
    - EI connection desruptors (template weapon to make several units irregular for 1 turn)

    Also maybe a strange TAG, much like the Mahagariba... not necessarily on 2 legs (human form is not good for robots).

    Another thing is SP that needs some touch up... the list posted by Xagroth is too typical, I started off with Eudoros and Alke' (because boxes...) in links like that and got 3rd to my first tournament with the Irish Warcor. Maybe Hoplites HI in Haris... some other character on the par with Hector that does some shenanigans.
     
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  12. Kortz

    Kortz Active Member

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    Soooo here goes my rant (actually thoughts) about this post thread hoping to fire up the conversation and maybe spitting out a good idea. First, Sorry for the length and well, this are the ideas I have for N4 and Aleph.



    General changes


    1) Kinematika Lv 2: Could be “cheaper” as it is a useful skill but quite situational and many times not a really good gamble over other options. Find it more like a bonus thing.



    2) MSV3: Price change or how they work, the auto discover isn't bad, specially for low WIP troops but maybe something more interesting like “when making a BS attack against a revealed trooper with the skill CH:Camufalge or higher, gain a +3 to your BS attack. That would make the quite a counter unit against some troops but not against all.



    3) Submachine Guns: A Increased cost or segmentation with ammo. Even if they are a short range weapon the versatility of the ammo they have make them a really good weapon combined with thir low price, many times better than a Combi rifle that is usually a higher cost weapon. If the general change of price is not an option, what about having a normal Sub-machine-gun with maybe a B1 alternate fire (what about Stun or AP) and then, the added ammo types like other weapons (Ex. Shock Sub machine gun and troops with this one would be more expensive).



    4) Monofilament: Adding the anti-material trait. This is more like a flavour change but it would find a decent place as is still instakilling troops but against scenery would be making just one STR damage against a potential of two or three of the other anti-material weapons. Thinking this as the AP against buildings.



    5)TAGS: Permanently Adding the Fatility, maybe even to the Lv2 to them. They are this big ass troops with big ass weapons, just the change of size should mean something to any weapons they use.

    Little extra ideas, this is making things more complicated and I do not know how bad or good would be if is made but here goes…

    A) Having different STR points depending on where the damage is being saved for ARM or BTS(This would be only for TAGs). Soo a TAG Would still have 2/3 points before going down but “overall” they would have more STR because they would have 2/3 points of damage against STR and 2/3 Points of damage against BTS and once one of those goes completely down the tag goes to unconscious.

    B) Having a special full order, lets call it “Overdrive”. This special Order can potentially cleanse harmful stats of an affected TAG (Would require a roll, maybe WIP or PH) and if it is successful it would have some detriment for a round or until a Enginieer comes by, (maybe a roll that determines what attribute got hit on the Overdrive giving it a -3 for some time, or reducing its movement (you get the idea)



    6) Hacking Devices: Well this one is a hotspot as many want simplier rules, streamlining, while other go to the other edge wanting more complex features. The idea that is going to be explained now has a little of both. First, applying the same names of some ammos, changing the DT for DA for example. Second, knowing that there are levels of programs (Claw 1 to 3 for Example) what about making segmenting more the hacking devices according to faction and lvl: Example Nomad KHD Lv2, this would have the 3 Sword-2 programs plus maybe one or two programs staple of the faction (Lets say a better version of Cibermask and the Claw-1 program Gotcha) this would take out the Sword 1 program out of the equation(for that Hacking Dvice) , add some flavour the hacking devices and a chance to have programs that usually are not used as option because some troops only have X or Y program now instead of generic a HD with some +. This would cause a rebalance of the hacking that may change the value of the troop and not only in price but on what offers and what not to the list and the list building as the each faction now could have more prevalence of certain programs in certain hacking devices.





    Well now for specific changes on some troops on ALEPH



    On the Steel Phalanx Sectorial, I'm a fan so there's a lot to say…
    First: Keep the Enomotarchos Fireteam rules and maybe, but just maaaaybe, actually not sure at all about this….have a special Core that requires one Character (Hector or some of the Myrmidon Official Characters, maybe Phoenix and Ajax ) up to 4 myrmidons, and one Agema (maybe a specific profile) or one Dacyl. So if the Characters, Agema or Dactyl dies the Core is no more, unless an evo hacker is around.



    -Andromeda – I think is quite widespread that Andromeda is one of the less used units in SP, while in OSS is a decent troop because she is the only one with good CC in the sectorial plus some additional profiles. So What about having some additional and specific Profiles on SP?

    1) A profile with a disposable weapon (Panzerfaust, for example) and a low SWC weapon (thinking of Red Fury)

    2) A profile with regeneration and a short range weapon.



    -Dacyls – They are mainly a support unit with some sturdy stats that increase their cost for a WIP 13 specialist. But also they can make an Enomotarchos FT with Acmon and Hector so looking to make this FT more interesting and versatile the next additions would be interesting.

    1) A SWC profile, could be a rocket launcher.

    2) A low cost, no specialist profile: a Shotgun profile with no breaker pistol, for example.

    3) a new Unit, the Dacyl Officer, Keeping most of the dactyls stats, maybe adding 1 to the BS or WIP, but that has the Enomotarchos (Dactyls) skill. This unit would have a Doctor profile, a profile with a high SWC Weapon of high burst, thinking HMG and maybe a cheaper utility profile with an assault pistol and two nanopulsers.

    The idea behind this is to make the Dactyl FT a decent option between the Torakitai and the Myrmidon, inflexible on the damage variety but not on the specialist focus.



    -Agema Marksmen – As the name implies they are here to shoot at things so no specialists, or equipment allowing them to make missions (aside from the MSV2). I'm on the fence on adding the capability to be in a FT, they struck me as loner troops. What about having some Specific sectorial profiles or that the existing profiles have something more on the sectorial…

    1) What about the missile launcher with Dogged.

    2) the MK12 profile with assault pistol.

    3) Maybe a profile that can join Ft, but pays something extra for that.



    - Sycilla, Drakios & Atalanta - They are NCOs… so what about adding the NCO(Sub-official)skill to the profiles or making a profile with the skill.



    - Nesiae Alke – She is the cheapest LT in SP in points, second in Aleph, but pays with a 1.5 SWC Spitfire.

    1) Adding a no SWC profile, thinking of a Marksman Rifle.

    2) What about adding to the existing SWC LT profile, Advanced command or counter intelligence.



    - Hector - Supposed to be the actual head and Leader of SP, but overshadowed by Achilles because for +2 to +4 points you get a trooper that can be LT with +1 to CC,+2 to BS, +1 to PH. The weapons and skills vary a more but still… this makes a big difference. The changes are focused on making him a LT more interesting to take without stepping in in the solo ramboing of Achilles.

    1) Removing the Kinematika Lv2 to 1, Similarly upgrading the Strategos to Lv2 , removing the Heavy pistol on the Plasma rifle profile and maybe adding +1 to BS for a same or similar price.

    2) Adding a Hoplite Armor Profile, having less movement, but adding more BTS (maybe 9) and ARM 6), and changing the SWC weapon for a low burst one (Feuerbach?),and another profile with no SWC, keeping that he has the weird weapons for the Human sphere to have, maybe a shotgun(Heavy or Vulkan) and a Disposable long range, like a Panzerfaust.



    - Achilles – He is really good, so I think a small increase in cost (2 to 5 points) would be good.



    - Thorakitai – I love how well this units has aged, the only thing that bothers me is the Combi rifle profile, I would completely erase it or add something to it, something that does not make him a specialist but maybe a second nanopulser, or a D.E.P, or some kind of deployable (not mines)…



    - Myrmidons – The backbone of the SP, they are in good spot just s couple of suggestions.

    1) A Specialist operative profile with shotgun or chain rifle.

    2) the AHD should have something extra, thinking of Lightning or Redrum (assuming Hacking does no change a lot like the HD suggestion).

    3) A cheaper profile, with just the usual Nanopulser or two (because Aleph pop this ones form nowhere), Two Pistols (maybe some special ammo) and Shock CC.



    OSS Sectorial: Have played them and they are good, really good. The suggestion here also apply (when possible) to Vanilla Aleph.



    - Remotes - What about adding some profile to the Daleth and Zayin in order to be capable to join some FT.

    1) Daleth able to join, Deva Harris

    2) Zayin able to join the Deva Core

    3) A Alternate profile for the Daleth with Red Fury or Shock Marskman Rifle , no Sniffer but X Visor.

    -Posthumans- They are really good, so a 1 to 2 point increment to some profiles would not be so bad.

    1) +1 point cost to the MK2 profiles

    2) +2 Point Cost to MK5 FO Profile and MK1 Medic or Enginieer.

    3) -2 to -4 point cost to the MK3 spitfire and add Hiperdinamics Lv 1.

    4) Another MK3 profile with no or low SWC, What about a two light shotguns, AP CC and I-Khol lv3.



    Nothing more to say I think OSS units they are in a really good spot



    NEW UNITS: The main focus of this is of a new sectorial that is the “public face” of Aleph. Thinking like humanitarian forces, focused on utility, and no killing missions.



    Note: this sectorial would have AVA 3 on Lamedh Remotes, Devas, Shukras and Dactyls, AVA 2 on Zayin , Daleth and Probots Remotes, as well on some mercs, like CSU, Cube Jager, Bounty Hunters. Also thinking that this could be the sectorial where the Human Sphere Factions, lend troops to Aleph to save face (Showing how they actually “work” together)...thinking Some MO, MMRF and Invincible army units.



    - Light TAG – S5 or 6 Tag with 2 STR, 6 ARM, 9 BTS, BS 13, 8-4 movement, Two Multi Marksman Rifles, light Riotstopper, Advanced Deployment Lv1 , ECM and a repeater, with an actual pilot that is a Medic WIP 14, 1 Wound, no BTS 1 ARM, Boarding Shotgun and Dogged. For something between 60 to 75 Points.



    -Security Forces – LI, 6 – 2 Movement, 1 ARM, NO BTS, CD 11, WIP 13, PH 10, CC 13 and 1 Wound. The profiles would have Shotguns, Two Stun Pistols, Marksman Rifles and Maybe a Sniper Rifle. For specialist and mission objectives would be Paramedics, Specialist Operatives, and D charges. For skills, maybe I-khol Lv 1 for all and for some profiles Albedo. This would a unit able to make a FT: Core



    - Hacking Defence Unit - HI, 4-2 movement, 1 ARM, 6 BTS, CD 11, WIP 14, PH 10, CC 14, 2 wounds. Sub machine Gun and Adhesive Launcher, HD with Counterstrike. Another profile with a light riot stopper and Assault Pistol and a AHD with White Noise.



    - Recovery Unit – LI 6-2 Movement, 2 ARM, 3 BTS, CD 12, WIP 13, PH 13, CC 16, 1 Wound with Dogged and Shock Imunnity. SkillS for all would be Advanced deployment Lv 2, Hiperdinamics LV 2. Profiles would be a Boarding Shotgun, FO with Adhesive launcher and deployable repeater, A Shock Marksman Rifle with cybermines. A Stun Assault pistol Enginieer. And a SV1 plus mimetism with heavy shotgun and grenades.





    Well that's about all… Hoping you had good time reading this and looking forward to your thoughts. Sorry for any and many mistakes in my writing, English is not my first language.
     
  13. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    Requests from someone who doesn't actually play ALEPH (but is in a meta with several ALEPH players):

    Please take a look at proxies. They are unbelievably cheap for what they do. In previous iterations, they took multiple spaces in a combat group (glad they got rid of this; it was making them almost unplayable), were a bit more expensive, and could actually be properly locked down (netrod death). In N3, all of these were removed. Our local ALEPH players consider proxies auto-includes because they are so strong now.

    Take a look at Frenzy pricing. It makes many ASS (heh) units so very cheap, to silly levels. Compare many Myrmidons to anything of their cost - ODD / -6 sharply skews regular gunfights in a way that is not fun. (My ALEPH opponents regularly go after my MSVs / template weapons first so that they can freely run the battlefield).

    Edit: especially considering Enomotarchos just removes possible disadvantages anyway on most of the units.

    Please don't jump on me for this - just observations I've been noting since ALEPH was released in N2.
     
    #53 Penemue, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  14. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    In general -
    - OSS could really use a source of smoke, because you are paying through your nose for all that MSV with no synergy. Or the MSV cost need to be brought inline when you do not have smoke avaliable.
    - MSV3 need to be reworked.
    - The army in general could really use a better repeater coverage. It is incredible that we are known for running the most REMs of any faction but our repeater net is so lacking.
    - Asura needs to be diferentiated so she isnt a worse Achilles. Same with Hector. If units share the same price point then they will be compared.
    - We could *really* use a light TAG. The Marut is way too expensive. Again, paying way too much for that MSV, ESPECIALLY in OSS where she does not have smoke support.
    - Posthumans need a rework. The rules are fine, but the discount they get is too large.
    - Thorikatai need a "officer" type unit to make links in SP so it does not depend on characters that invalidate their own profiles.
    - Andromeda really should have superior infiltration avaliable on all of her. It is the only reason she is usable.
    - Combi rifle, the army. I understand the reason, but it still feels.... meh. The Asura suddenly became usable when she gained a MULTI, for example. We could really use some less bland weaponry - especially on the top guys.

    There is a *lot* of stuff that needs point rework - I believe that should touch up most of the things in ALEPH, but not because they are specific ALEPH problems. That above is what I think are specific issues with the faction.
     
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  15. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    Very true. Perhaps it isn't that the Asura is worse, but that Achilles is too efficiently costed?

    (I'd love to see more Asura hit the table.)
     
  16. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    XD XD XD XD Dream on. Asura is right now about 15 points too much when you have access to Smoke.

    Note: Don't reduce the price on Asura. That's boring and not what Aleph should be. Make the MSV3 worth the points.
     
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  17. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I wonder. Myrms are good, not denying that. I wouldnt call them cheap through, especially since mixed core fireteams are more and more common. And myrmidons can't have a 5 men team bonus, so that leverage their power a bit. Well, frenzy cost reduction is still something that CB should look at, and not only for SP.

    As for comparing myrmidon to things their cost, for 25 pts you have ODD/combi myrm. For that same price, you often have camo/infiltrators with combi. It's less strong in direct fight, but win in order efficiency. You have even some CH:TO (clipsos, hexas, order sergents ...). Enomotarkos leaders are in the 35-40 pts range for 1W + NWI without shock immunity, that's the price of your average HI. Well they are totally worth it and strong in their own, but calling them "very cheap" is ... not exactly true.
     
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  18. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    How would you do this? It already eats through Camo like crazy, and going back to old MSV3 rules (just shoot through marker state) isn't a good solution.
     
  19. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    I don't think they're cheap in general - I just think they're cheap for units that carry ODD. :) Also, a Camo/Infil has a combi, while a 25 point Myrm also adds template weapons, smoke, and CC ability.

    You're right in that it's the price of your average HI...now tack on ODD, and that changes things a bit. I take your comparison to infil/camo guys, but this is a bit different.

    (And yes, Frenzy needs to be looked at across the board, not just for SP!)
     
  20. melkiach

    melkiach Well-Known Member

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    2020 - No more Netrods,

    Thx