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AI Beacon Vs Tactical Window

Discussion in 'Rules' started by xagroth, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Those are three different (but linked) troopers on the table that during list building and for combat group purposes count as one.

    So, I'm saying "may only field up to 15 Troopers and their equipment" would be a very interesting extra.
     
  2. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    I think people are being dense on purpose.
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    EDIT: too tired to quote the right post... damn :S

    On the top of my head (I'm sure there are much more viable lists around)

    15 troops, 21 orders (TAGs get a TacWare order, and this one I just piled morlocks, saw would get short, and placed the TAG).
    Nomads
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    PUPPETBOT Red Fury / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 16)
    PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11)
    PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14)
    SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    HECKLER Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    SZALAMANDRA Hyper-rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2 | 90)
    [​IMG] SZALAMANDRA PILOT Contender / Pistol, Knife. ()
    HECKLER Red Fury / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 24)
    SALYUT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]4
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 6)
    MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 6)
    MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 6)
    MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 6)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This one has 15+2+2, of which the Marut can use 12... up to 13 in two scenarios in which she gets to be the datracker and get an order for that.

    ALEPH
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    APSARA (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    MARUT Lieutenant (Strategos L3) MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Nanopulser / AP CCW. (3 | 120)
    [​IMG] KARKATA Flash Pulse / Knife. (0 | 0)
    PROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    PROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)

    4 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #63 xagroth, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  4. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    I really feel like the intent is clear and people are just being deliberately obtuse
     
    wildchevy, Robock and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I might be dense today (or as always depending on one's opinion bout me), but with this new ITS extra is it possible (for Aleph) to take 14 bodies+3 Proxies or not ?o0
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As was answered on the warcor forum you're allowed to take 14 order-generating bodies + 3 Proxies. As is actually written in the rules, no you're not because that's 17 Troops (unless some of the bodies are AI Beacons.)
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  7. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I think you over counted for the Marut. 10 regular orders + 1 LT order + 1 TacAw order + 1 possible DT order = 12(13)
     
    xagroth likes this.
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's what I thought when people said you couldn't shoot Guided ammo at mines after Targeting them. But apparently nit-picking wordings are super important in this game.
     
    Robock likes this.
  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Perish the thought!
     
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Only for purposes of Combat groups. In-game, each one is separate!


    Well, neither the game rules nor society rules/laws allow us to just shoot the damn rules-lawyers, so you need to have something solidly written to prevent them from breaking your game. It's a tournament, you don't really have the option of not playing them.
     
    xagroth and Brother Smoke like this.
  11. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    At first I thought it would have been better as one and a half combat group.

    It is not more than half the list of a nearby meta. their list are 18+ troopers spam unless the TO force a LI tournament. Now it can be a reasonable size armies without being strictly LI. For me though, i usually play around 12-15 in my meta.

    One and a half group RAW doesn't work though, as a 7/8 split works better but RAW is over the "half a group" restriction (while the first is only a restriction, you are always free to field less than the 10 allowed). So 15 slots is better worded. Except slot is not defined. So they goes for troopers.
     
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So in case of tactical window Aleph can take something like 19 models (14 standard +3 proxies +2 AI Beacons) and have something like 17 (18 with Strategos 1) regular orders ?
     
  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Anything that fills a "single slot" in a combat group would fill a "single slot" in the 15 "slots" allotted by TW. AI Beacons are awkward because the wording used there is inconsistent ("combat group member"), but I'd bet doughnuts to dollars they will count once it's clarified.
     
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  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    But I can't make a Coordinated Order with 2 or 3 proxies on it!!!

    By using "slots in the Army", Aleph can fill the Proxies as 1 body (so 11 troops, 3 Netrods, 3 proxies)
    By going for Troops, Aleph can fill Netrods for free, and RAW proxies would count as 1 trooper (so 3 proxies +3 Netrods +14 troops)
    By falling into HellLois' rule about Datatracker Proxies (which is a ruling for balance, not for rules consistency, since the "troop" is the Posthuman in the end), at this moment it could be argued for 3 proxies +12 other troops... but the Netrods would enter for free, so 3+12+3...

    Is it a mess? Yep. Is it broken? Well, unless the Aleph player sets his focus on order spam, it should not be. Nevertheless, the rules need to be clear, and a definite definition of what constitutes a Troop is becoming more and more critical.


    On the CA, this is less chaotic, but remember they have 2 Imetrons (AI beacon), so could in theory deploy a 17 orders vanilla force (well, 18 because of probable strategos... and if a TAG is there, 19... 20 with Datatracker... XD)
     
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    It's broken no matter how you look at it under the interpretation given here. It's a restriction that RAW has less effect the on most consistently overperforming sectorial than any almost other sectorial in the game (except the ones that weren't hitting this body count to begin with).
     
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  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I was talking about the "overextend" the orders. Anyway, limiting to 15 slots won't solve much, since most "spammy" lists I see around top at 17 models (slots in the Army, at least) for 300pts... but carry a lot of impetuous orders. The problem comes from limiting troops but not orders, and then giving extra orders, skewing things in a way that difficults to balance it all.

    As for the "troop limit", I think it still frags USAriadna, MRRF, etc..., and no, I don't see this Extra as a solution, the truth is I prefer to play with 10-14 slots in the army, but that is a little hard for factions without Counterintelligence.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No. In neither interpretation would this work.
     
  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    How so?

    14 standard troopers, the 3 proxies count as one trooper, and the 3 AI beacons don't count as Troopers at all. 15 Troopers in the Army list, but 18+ regular orders.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not so.

    Proxies are two to three Troopers, except in combat groups where they count as one trooper and in terms of order generation where the Ghost: Jumper trooper is held distinct from the Proxy troopers (this is probably due to legacy reasons, though it does open up for interpretation that a Jumper with 3 Proxies are 4 Troopers) and deployment. For all other purposes - number of troopers in army list, number of troopers on the field, propagation of states, etc, they are several Troopers.
    List "slots" is simply put not one of the exceptions for a Jumper. "One trooper during list building" is user shorthand that's not entirely correct.
     
  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Problem is that "proxies" are not "the troop", so to speak. The POSTHUMAN that takes control of the Lhosts is. I had to check about this during a campaign, because RAW that means +1 AVA to the posthuman could allow you to deploy additional proxy bodies (the TO managed to get an answer from HellLois, in which he stated that the AVA would apply to 1 per body, not to the Posthuman at all, which is consistent with the Datatracker ruling, but not with the LT rules for Posthumans).

    Anyway, it was one option, and I think it's very likely the ruling, if we ever get one, will be that we should use Army slots (so in fact Aleph could deploy 14 troopers, and 2-3 proxy bodies).

    Then again, who knows.