Santiago are no pushovers, either, especially since they have their Tinbot A on their Hacker profile and as such is accessible in vanilla as well. I'm just wondering how you'd construct a hacking arena that allows one hacker to position for advantage over another without it being too convoluted and strange.
I actually really like the Tinbot on a useful profile thing. Making Tinbots more widely available could be an interesting way to increase the relevance of 'positioning'. Why not have a Tinbot on a MI AHD? A relatively simple way of making postioning matter it is to have Deflector apply to friendly troopers within ZOC of the owning Trooper instead of members or the same Fireteam' (or on addition to). Something else that I'd consider is making Kaleidoscope and Reboot a Shield 2 program. This would give it to HD+ and WHDs (I'd also make Teampro an automatic effect of EVOs not a Programme and just allow them to have any Supportware up at the start of the game for the cost of a command token). Then make WHDs much more widely available and cheap (they cost more than KHDs, 2/0.5 SWC does seem unreasonable): this would allow people to grab a relatively cheap specialist who actually has defensive functions.* * I'd also make U-turn work vs Spec Fire from outside ZOC. Compensated for by making it easier to get Targetted off, but probably toned down (IE make it only add the +3 MOD OR cancel the -6 MOD not both).
Hmm. What if Fairy Dust established a perimeter area equal to the Hacker's Zone of Control and any Hacking from outside that area encountered a Firewall - KHDs included. KHDs gimmick could well be that they can ride on enemy Hacker Repeaters rather than ignore Firewalls which would be harder to set up. Meanwhile, e.g. Breakwater could be a Firewall+ making the White/Defensive devices actually protective. Add in a strong reduction in number of programs because seriously the plethora or programs is not interesting challenge
More use of Deflector (Tinbot A/B) would be an easy start, since that's effectively Mimetism/ODD versus hacking anyways.
This would definitely reign in the power level of KHDs as the only baseline SWORD program with a positive mod (outside of CA) is Skullbuster, so a lot of the time they will be eating the negative mod, or at the very least forcing people to pick something other than Redrum or Trinity. Just allow SHIELD programs to declared when you would a reset, roll them out to HD, and AHD (EVO and HD+ already have them) and delete the white/defensive. maybe let SHIELD programs essentially become a taunt like effect if they could be a legal target.
That's specifically not the kind of interaction you'd be after if your goal is to increase positional advantage. The Tinbot doesn't care where your opponent is, only that your opponent is at all attacking. We're also talking about very niche and not very huge bonuses so specific programs that are weaker against unprotected targets but stronger against Tinbotted targets, in essence hacking MSV, is also not a great idea (not to mention the increased program bloat) What I'm thinking about is a more physical firewall, where you avoid the bonuses if both you and target is outside the perimeter or if both you and your target are inside, effectively reducing the strength of repeaters and increasing that of hackers near the target. This kind of Firewall would have to be a bit more meaningful than just "cover", though.
You can possibly do it by having Repeaters apply a -3 WIP MOD to Hacking Attacks used by both Target and Attacker. I'd honestly prefer this to the current 'KHDs ignore Firewalls' approach to reducing the effectiveness of Repeaters.
Requiring Repeaters to activate for Hackers to use them, thus allowing AROs against it, would also hit them hard without much extra maths. This would also boost the Blackout program a bit as well.
Also kicks repeater equipped REMS in the teeth a bit too, especially when multiple Hacking AROs are generated. This would also mess with a fundamental concept in that only the model activating generates an ARO, then theres further clunk in that if it is "activating" are there also non hacking AROs, then probably more weirdness further on.
Is it just me, or do you all also feel that there is not much assault on the AHD? Meaning, its quite an order sink to use in the active turn most of the time and you get so much more mileage out of it, when you use it for ARO. Imho this could be changed to fit a bit better...make the it more rewarding to use in active turn (B or Wip bonuses) and worse in the reactive turn (Wip maluses) for instance. That would incentivise to spend orders on them and make them less punishing for the opponent in their active turn. On top of that a programm that helps them to stand a better chance of surviving against KHD. Sounds good to me, what do you guys think?
Basilisk and Carbonite should be split the way you're talking about; however, unless you care about the duration of the IMM Carbonite is strictly better. So I wouldn't have an issue with emphasizing that difference between it and Bassilisk. This would also open up room for Icebreaker/Stop! as they would be both IMM-1 (2 turns) like Gotcha. (I still think just replacing Icebreaker with Stop! across the board also be a good idea). Something like this could work: So you get: Gotcha B2 DAM13 IMM-1 (2 turn) Bassilisk B3 DAM13 +3 ATK WIP IMM-1 (1 turn)* Carbonite B1 DAM13 +3 ATK WIP, -3 OPP WIP IMM-1(1 turn), DT Stop! B2 DAM16 IMM-1 (2 turn), Breaker * This gives similar performance to current Carbonite, but marginally worse. It would simplify what program you use in what circumstances. It's clear Bassilisk is your offensive Programme and Carbonite is your defensive one. Stop! (if you have it) you use on Normal rolls or when you need the extra duration. If would mean that vs a KHD with Repeater/Surprise Shot you're simply B2 vs B1 (with both at -3 WIP). All that being said I think that's a bad design. A Surprise Shot/Repeater using KHD should be ~+1 Burst AND +3 WIP vs a regular AHD (or +2 Burst, or +6 WIP, as they're all roughly the same thing). This difference is enough that a KHD would reliably win FTFs vs a AHD: which is what you want. (You need a roughly +/- 6 WIP swing to reliably win a FTF) So the maximum bonus you want for a Regular AHD is +3 ATK WIP or -3 OPP WIP. I think we also need to consolidate programs as there are just too many. KHDs are the easiest to do this with. Sword-1 Brainblast - B2 DAM13 Sword-2 Skullbuster - B1 DAM13 -3 OPP WIP DT Sword-3 Trinity - B3 DAM13 Shock / Breaker --- Upgrade Maestro - B2 DAM 13 +3 ATK, -3 OPP, Causes auto UNC Upgrade Lightning - B2 DAM13 -6 OPP WIP, Breaker This would result in KHDs that win FTFs just as often BUT *HDs which survive those same FTFs more often. It provides a clear Active / Reactive split (with HD+ getting Sword-2s for Skullbuster). You could then do this with the IMM Claws: Claw 1 Gotcha - B2 DAM 13, IMM-1 (1 turn) Claw 3 Bassilisk - B3 DAM 13 +3 ATK WIP, IMM-1 (1 turn) ---- Upgrade Stop! - B2 DAM13, +3 ATK WIP, -3 OPP WIP, Breaker, IMM-1 (1 turn) Similar principal: increasing the likelihood of winning a FTF but compensating by reducing effective DAM. The other thing I did was simplify things by making everything IMM-1 (1 turn): this slightly nerfs Gotcha!, but that's probably fine (the second turn is extremely variable anyway). Stop! has a clear role in ARO boosting the survivability of 'high end' AHDs.
Why not the other way around there is more Icebreaker than there is stop, and it is significantly more useful against the top end targets which Hacking is meant to have impact against. Is it though? sure the effect doesn't last as long but you are more likely to stick the effect which will allow to do the one, two punch of brick a model then shoot it far more reliable. While I agree, I think it could be tweaked to be more straight forward with a more right tool for the job framework. For starters the LEVEL 1 lethal and IMM programs should probably only exist on the EVO, and HD(+) so as to unclutter the dedicated devices and delete all the essentially duplicate programs (Overlord, Sucker punch). That way you have your burst 3, mod less, Low damage Shock/Breaker program, then the high dam modded DT program, and maybe your upgrade if you have it. This makes it more of picking the right tool for the job as each has their own dedicated piece of utility. for example a KHD that is just Redrum, Skullbuster, and Trinity where you swap the ammo types on RR and SB (because the -3 and DT is a bit over the top where as with a +3 shouldn't be as bad) before upgrades or other utility programs is fairly simple and straight forward with a program for each archetype of target. BTS 6-9, sling the breaker program, low BTS, hit them with DT, NWI/Dogged or you want it proper dead, Shock (just realised that this kinda puts it closer to how a MULTI weapon operates). Currently the AHD is short a program for this as it would just be Carbonite and Baslisk (which should probably pick up breaker) though it has more wider ranging utility than the laser focus of the KHD it's probably fine. Also BTS values are significantly higher than ARM, damage 13 isn't going to cut it outside of the bottom end targets. At the end of the day I honestly think that the majority of the current hacking ecosystem is fine (outside of a few outlier problems like certain programs that shouldn't exist or exist on their current platforms) it's just laid out in such a way that makes learning a pain in the ass but once you make it past that it isn't as bad as most people think.
B2 +3 ATK WIP DT would be SOOO much worse than what we have right now. First +3 ATK WIP is statistically slightly more effective than -3 OPP WIP (vs Zoe a WIP15 KHD has a 74.85% chance of success with a B2 WIP+3 DT program or a 73.02% chance with Redrum). Second, normal rolls *shudders*. Redrum needs to be merged with Skullbuster as a B1 program otherwise it will always outshine Trinity/Skullbuster outside of edge cases. As I proposed I'd just lose Redrum and make Trinity Shock/Breaker: this gives you an ARO program and an offensive program: yes, it almost explicitly makes it a Hacking Multi-Rifle. If you wanted to keep RR I'd do it as a straight Multi-Rifle with Trinity/Skullbuster: B3 DAM13 Shock/Breaker, B1 DT. This would open up space for Skullbuster as an enhanced DT ammo types (DAM13, -3 OPP WIP, DT). And yes, my proposed changes to Bassilisk basically replicates the outcome of Carbonite at the moment in terms of getting the IMM-1 off. You lose a little bit (<5%) off the chance of success but lose the FTF a lot less often (~10%), this means fighting an AROing KHD becomes a lot more tractable. I'd be ok with losing Claw-1s from AHDs and Sword-1s from KHDs. But overall that's effectively the case now: an AHD should never use Gotcha and a KHD should never use Brainblast. This is no different to anyone with a Combi shouldn't use a Pistol at range. Keeping everything as DAM13 was a deliberate decision: the hardest thing to remember is the damage of hacking programmes. Reducing the 'deadliness' of hacking programs is overall I think a good thing as it allows you to improve them in otherways. B3 DAM13 Breaker is actually quite effective when you only need a single success to achieve an outcome: there's very few units with really high BTS and they pay for that. Equally, most ARM is +3 due to Cover: that's not true of hacking where most hacking does not involve Firewalls. Re: Icebreaker. It's not significantly better than Stop! even at the absolute toughest threats (vs an Avatar through Firewall it's 24.49% for Stop! and 30% for Icebreaker; without Firewall it's 38.69% and 40.84%). Under any condition that it's a good option to use it actively there's very little difference. But CB wanted to keep it I wouldn't have an issue with it, provided it was differentiated. Differentiating the two as one that is more likely to win the FTF (so good to use vs KHDs) and one that is more likely to get off against high BTS targets could work though. At the moment though they're way to similar: the reason I'd keep Stop! is it's the simpler program (also it's generally more effective).
my point was more so that the you weren't decreasing the opponents chance at success, and given most AHD programs give bonus mods to the attack that their chance to succeed is also increased (though more of a random thought than anything). Normal rolls while not necessarily ideal may be necessary as the second you give any device an advantage on the KHD it defeats it's purpose. so Suckerpunch? its not that much different than remembering damage values on weapons. though I was tossing around the idea of damage tied to level so the level 1 programs are 13's, the 2s are 15's and the 3s are 17's as a base.
If you scroll up in the N4 thread I think you'll get to read a bunch of suggestions to "reduce the weapons bloat significantly". I often get surprised comments because I've memorised most weapons' values, but I'm still struggling with remembering all the ins and outs of hacking programs.
