AHD or no AHD Poll

Nah, take it away I say! A KHD isn't many more points than being a specialist operative, and is disproportionately valuable when it is useful.

 

I think that currently the AHD has a good use in having access to counter predictable opponents. I like having that option. But I would love to see it become less of a liability. I feel like the upsides of an AHD is already accounted for in the cost, but now it is a weakness in a link or on a powerful unit as well. I still take them on Wildcats decently often but they do die to KHD a lot. It's not imagined for me.

 

I think the biggest thing is that KHDs ignore Firewalls. It's one thing to see an opponent spend several orders to push a Camo marker forward, avoiding your carefully deployed AROs and them Red Rum your Wildcat AHD. It's quite another for them to trivially exploit one of your Moran's repeaters and do it.

I still find AHDs lacklustre in a Tournie setting (where opponent's aren't usually predictable). I tend to go to EM weapons in preference these days.

Which is why I think less spikey more universally applicable is better than what we have now.

 

The issue with moving the strong hacking programs to being Upgrades is that this skews the game in general. The hacking factions that can fairly trivially set up repeater networks are the ones that get it and it's these factions that you want to have less of these stronger programs, so while Yu Jing, Pan-O, and to some extent Combined (we'll see whether O-12 gets more repeaters or if Cyberghosts is where it stops) can do reasonable hacking, it is not against these factions you'll have problems when running REMs, TAGs or HI as your key units. If all you're doing is nerfing those, and then consistently getting your TAG possessed like usual against Nomads or Haqq, then what have you really accomplished?

---

This might be more for the N4 thread, but I'd like to see hacking change more to being tall or wide. At the moment Nomads are tall and wide. Maybe, Nomads should either be tall with access to top-quality hacking devices, purpose built units, but costly and with few options to spread repeaters, and it's here you'll find that an enemy Uhlan runs the risk of being possessed - or they should be wide with trivially common repeaters, deployable repeaters, and pitchers, while the hackers themselves are typically mediocre WIP at best with no BTS and with ghetto-devices that run only basic programs so that the enemy Uhlan approaching has to deal with a bunch of WIP 12-13 AROs that's trying to IMM-1 it for one turn at DAM 10-13.

I.e.
Tall : Easy to navigate for your opponent, but very dangerous.
Wide: Hard to navigate for your opponent, but more annoying than actually dangerous.

---

But regardless of which, having hacking should always be an asset. KHD currently has Cybermask and is cheap so that it's a benefit even against opponents who run without Hackers. AHD not so much, but if the AHD could be used to give HI and TAGs a benefit... (for example, what if there existed a program that allowed you to coordinate order them with the AHD who got IMM-1ed for the order?)

 

I mostly agree. But I think the most egregious programmes should just be removed.

I disagree with your tall or wide dichotomy because it puts hacking in it's own box. I think hacking should not be in its own box but rather integrated into the overall game balance. What I mean is that it would be fine for Nomads to be both tall and wide if they also lacked top tier resilient gunfighters (looks meaningfully at the Kriza) AND had Hacking options to deal with more common situations (I want, as a Nomad player, to say "it's fine that outside of a TAG I can't reliably FTF a Kamau MSR because I can use X Hacking ability that's relatively ubiquitous to deal with it instead").

 

Absolutely a very valid direction to head in, but I do like to note that my problem with hacking doesn't quite stem from Nomads having access to great gunfighters or great melee fighters, but rather that there's a few factions that are neither tall, nor wide, but have little choice but to dabble in hacking while factions/lists designed to avoid having hacking targets isn't disadvantaged by it... and that the Kriza is one of the strongest candidates for best cost:effect ratio gunfighter and HI doesn't really help :p
So, addressing the issue with tall versus wide is one way to do it. Increasing the cost-efficiency of hackable units to the assumption that you'll be facing a tall-and-wide opponent is another. Increasing the friendly-target utility of hacking is a third, though this depends on such abilities not being gated to only the hacking factions.

After all, if you neuter Nomads' gunfighters, all that will result in is them having a problem with Ariadna and Tohaa (and lists focusing on LI/MI/SK in general). Plus you'd have to increase the cost:performance ratio of gunfighters in factions that are weaker in hacking

 

Not necessarily.

You tone down a Tall+Wide Hacking faction's (IE Nomads) gunfighters while making hacking more useful against non-Hackable targets.

Simultaneously you price Hackable units on the assumption of tall or wide. This means that while they are more vulnerable to Nomads than average they also outshoot them.

A faction that doesn't have any hacking at all needs it's own advantages. The obvious one is free non-Hackable on their HI: meaning that vs an opponent who isn't tall or wide in hacking they get a slight advantage.

----

The result is to build a top-tier Nomad list you need to be exploiting Hacking.

It's about design statements, the one that got me into Nomads was something like:
"Nomads optimal playstyle is a synergistic mix of MI, REMs and Hackers where the player creates opportunities with their Hackers that they exploit with their MI and REMs".

The benefit of that playstyle is that it doesn't rely on Nomads being the tallest or widest faction. Theirs no reason that CA couldn't be taller or Aleph be wider (or vice versa). It just requires that they need Hacking to work but a compensated by superlative access to it.

With YJ and PanO, I'd repackage their 'tactical' hacking doctrines as 'primarily, but not entirely, defensive in purpose'. IE if Possession remains in the game, you could give all PanO AHDs "Exorcism" (and make Exorcism work in ARO) and all YJ ones "Fairy Dust". This benefit would offset their hacking being neither tall nor wide and would emphasis the faction's tactical differences.

 

There's some pretty massive flaws with that design, though;
This runs on the assumption that the factions with less hacking has an identifiable and strong identity in their combat units. I'm not sure I agree this is the case for the two big 'uns due to internal balance systems.
Additionally, there's the obvious problem with how an AHD running Fairy Dust isn't ever going to happen since it's always going to be the worst choice for it due to Daoying - and even without Daoying, sticking a LI far away from repeaters and prone is going to be better at it simply because they won't get their brain fried on a turn-by-turn basis.

Now, nothing forces a Nomad, Haqq, or other to go wide nor tall. Have to account for that, and have to make that work. Maybe the Kriza needs to be brought in line a bit, maybe not, but the Kriza doesn't factor on the axis of hacking at all. Hacking is almost exclusively a weapon, and just like how you don't nerf the Kriza by removing Camouflage from an Intruder, nerfing the Kriza will do very little to address how oppressive Nomads can be to lists that by force or otherwise opt for Hackable units. Besides, you know, Haqq are kind of all kinds of oppressive in the same way a lot of the time, and Haqq don't really have an easily identifiable great shooting unit.
The core issue there, I think, is that those Hackable units are mostly balanced without taking Hacking into account at all.

Still, and trying to return towards topic, there remains the issue where an AHD is a rather large investment that can be thwarted by your opponent by simply not taking any HI/TAGs. Arguably, the way the game is developing with an increasing over-abundance of MSV2 troops in Fireteams, maybe White Noise should be seriously considered for AHDs.

As a foot note, I find it kind of funny how certain Nomads (not Tunguska) are described as using jury-rigged stuff built in someone's backyard from spare parts of outdated and discarded equipment and somehow that results in better gear than the new state-of-the-art stuff that Pan-O has. And it's also kind of funny how the Hexahedron and Daijing (I think it was) super-hacking computer... stuff are basically not reflected on the table at all.

 

I'm don't think you're right that an AHD will never run Fairy Dust. Crane or Shang Ji AHDs running Fairy Dust seems like a great way to get them into lists (particularly if KHDs no longer ignore Fairy Dust). Particularly if you need your Daoying to be running Supportware for a REM or are running ISS or LI.

And yeah, the potentially oppressive nature of MSV2 Fireteams is why I proposed 'Solvent' as something for AHDs to have against non-Hackable targets. It also has the bonus of making it feel like 'not having Hacking' is an actual weakness while not actually changing the balance too much for those factions (dropping a Repeater and then Solventing a Grunt link is an inefficient way of dealing with a 10pt ARO).

I'd prefer Kriza to have with something like 'Targetting systems' which give it MML2 vs Targetted troopers rather than the +1 Burst from FA. Couple this with making Targeted easier to achieve (but less powerful*) and it gives a cool synergistic option. This concept is a complete spitball but is the sort of thing you can do to more fully integrate active hacking into the game. [Edit: The other (simpler) option is you just make it 2.5 SWC in Vanilla (which is 'toning it down') so it's more expensive from an SWC POV than the equivalent MI + Hacker while simultaneously providing buffs to Hacking (ie with White Noise + Solvent + a Moira HMG you have a more SWC efficient way of dealing with a core-linked MSV2 MSR for a similar points cost to a Kriza).]

You can easily integrate this with a buff to AHDs:

CLAW-2 Lumen (B2, -3 ATK WIP, Short Skill/ARO)
> Successful hit causes the Targeted state

(IE Spotlight with +1 B).

What I'm basically arguing is:

The way to fix AHDs is to fully integrate Hacking into the game by making hacking options more generally useful but less extreme in their effects and to balance around that design while also reducing the effectiveness of KHDs.

I'm happy for the details of that to be ambiguous right because it involves a systemic change of so many other things than just AHDs.

* One of the options for this is a Targeted 1 state (caused by a single hit) that is the +3 to hit, and a Targeted 2 state (caused by two hits) that removes the penalty to Spec Fire / Guided balanced by making Targeted easier to achieve (this adds a degree of complexity though). Another option is to nerf the Guided/Spec Fire + Targetted combo marginally: ie make it easier to achieve but less powerful once gotten off.

 

My preferred universal-application solution to make AHDs relevant against Ariadna and other unhackables would be a Hacking Area-wide program that hits enemy Markers and Troopers with a state that could be cleared with Reset which has the NFB label. Lower success chance than Sensor and no Targetting, but would quickly take away the protection of troops who rely on heavy negative modifiers since they're all NFB. Call it Mark or something. Being able to take an AHD as a partial replacement for MSV and Sensor would certainly justify its cost.

 

I think my answer is not listed in the poll: I take them because I want to use them for what they are designed for. Nerv HI/REM/TAG. But I agree, that they are wrong named. They not do any assault, that is what the KHD do and it is too cheap and makes it dangerous to take a AHD. And its a bit too expansive. I hope we get less different HDs in N4. White and Defense are not realy useful. AHD need a real assault option - a Killer-ugrade.

My last game shows me, that it is only the dices, not the devices. After my KHD kills a HD, the AHD burns my KHD and and my HD also ... so AHD was a winner! In ARO ... okay maybe just bad luck ;-)

 

Ever heard of the parallel-PS3 supercomputers?

Sometimes jury-rigged gear is cheap and brutally powerful. Bigger and bulkier, you bet. But cheaper and available.

That's kinda where I'm at. AHDs are useful, but they're expensive compared to a KHD.

Let's be honest here, how many people look at a 3pt and 0SWC specialist and say 'sold!'? Oh, and said 3pt/0SWC specialist murders AHDs without trying. And has a Marker State. All for 1-2pts more than an FO. KHDs are too cheap for what they do!

 

You can probably jury rig several hundred Bakunin hackers to accomplish the same, but we're still talking about several hundred hackers and not a single one of them and they'll still be running their programmes on PS3s because they can't afford proper equipment not because the PS3 is superior performance per hacker ;)

 

I actually don't take KHDs often as they make my kindergarten drop-out PanO Specialists vulnerable to Hacking themselves, and everyone else usually has much better versions in much better starting positions or has nothing for it to target at all. I've found AHDs to be much more reliably useful in my games; repelling Hackable targets trying to breach my DZ is critical since my local meta is packed with ALEPH, Nomads and other tech-heavy factions.

All that said, KHDs are definitely still too cheap. If it weren't for the restrictions on their targets we'd be taking KHDs to do the HMG's job because of the excessive wounding potential and safety of the SWORD-3 FTF rolls.

 

If we're making a fluff point about 'gear quality' hackers area a bad example. Everything else in Nomads is jury rigged: tactical Quantronic stuff they're on the bleeding edge because they're in a constant arms race with themselves and with ALEPH.

Strategic and operational level tools they don't have the same resources (which is where the FTL hacking tools come in). But luckily we don't need to consider those factors [emoji14]

Which is why I don't have an issue with Nomads being tactically deep and wide for Hacking. I do have an issue with this AND them getting some of the best HI in the game.

 

I run the Zero AHD very frequently, but I feel like he is in his own bucket having camo and all. I use him mainly for Spotlight and Total Control, and try to avoid AROs at all costs.

I think the problem with the hacking devices is that they were thought up one at a time without much consideration of how they'd interact. You can absolutely see it in profiles like the Reverend Custodier, who started out strong but is now kind of a mess.
Hacking just feels disjointed at the end of N3 and I hope they put some real effort into it for N4.

 

I run one of two things : AHD and KHD, or HD/HD+ and KHD in lists. Rarely do I have all three unless I have a great repeater network (2 Morans and something else like a Meteor). I do take AHD when I get to build for fighting specific opponents: MO, IA, Aleph of any kind, or when there's a TAG-specific mission. They were also nasty in Frostbyte (RIP Frostbyte).

 

Yeah, I think this is the overall issue.

Hacking got made a lot more interesting in N3 (than it was in N2), but then got really disjointed later on.

 

I think KHDs just highlighted the problem. To continue with Bakunin, for instance, the only difference between "elite infowarrior" custodier HD+ and "who is this guy" Zero KHD is a point of WIP and 3 BTS, which isn't enough to make the Zero even think twice about going in. If we were shooting there would be range bands, cover, and other all sorts of other mods, but hacking has so little behind it. All you really have is Tinbot A&B, and honestly it's only the Haidao who can exploit that advantage fully.

Pretty lame that a dude with WIP 13 and no BTS is the best hacker in the game, but there you are.