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AHD or no AHD Poll

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ranger, Dec 10, 2019.

?

Do you take an AHD anymore.

Poll closed Dec 24, 2019.
  1. Yes. All the time, they are great.

    37.8%
  2. Yes. But only because I don't have other options.

    17.8%
  3. No. I don't have any in my forces.

    6.7%
  4. No. I take KHD and he's likely to be killed by a KHD.

    37.8%
  5. No. I could but I don't like hacking.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    We have Pitchers and Deployable Repeaters from the Hunzakut. With those you can easily bring (awesome imho) Barids into play without even leaving the DZ.
    And the latter is often better to make it harder for enemy KHD to fry them.
     
  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Good point. Though if I were to put down repeaters with a Hunzakut, it would probably be to use the Barid AHD, not the KHD.
     
  3. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    This is why I really like the Nahab KHD. If you want them up the board you can just infiltrate them. If instead you are going second or need them further up, just hold them in AD and walk them in where you need 'em. The more I play them (Red Fury and KHD), the more they are moving up into my top 3 favourite Haqq units.
     
  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I wish I could take a Delta AHD

    But then Deltas already have FOs, Docs and KHDs so I guess that's fair.
     
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Usually KHD and Normal HD in IA.
     
  6. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    AHD on infiltrator and only if I want to run Smart Missile Drone.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    There's literally 3 AHDs I'd use in the game for tournament play, and 2 of them are from the same Faction.

    1. Posthuman Proxy MK2 AHD. 24 Points means it's cheaper and flat out better than a Dasyus (sans Mines and Mulitterrain). Elite TO Skirmisher for the Price of a Camo BS11 guy.
    2. Deva AHD Upgrade:Lightning - but only in NCA. Double duty as a KHD, WIP15, BSG+Nanopulser on a NWI Specialist which in turn protects from Maestro. Not sure how that Profile happened, doesn't even look that great at a first glance, but the happy accidents with this one are really neat. Can also be Core Linked to get it Sixth Sense L2 in a Sectorial chock full with Repeaters. Neat.
    3. Brawler AHD. WIP 12, okay that's a downer. But an SMG to offset almost the cost to the same as Specialist Operative and easy access to a Core Link to again get access to Sixth Sense makes it pretty damn good for the points.

    Other than that AHDs are good when they are good, but their costs are disproportionate to the downsides of being basically a bad version of FO vs unhackable Matchups like Tohaa/Ariadna/Haqqq often run.
    On top of that the obvious counter to them is 3/0 for a KHD compared to the 6/0.5 for the AHD. A proper Marker State can still massively improve an AHD, but same goes for the KHD. Cheaper cost and being able to kill other Hackers makes the KHD the default choice to unlock Flashpulse bots as Order monkeys or as the token Hacker to protect your hackable troops.
    HI AHDs have the additional problem with Maestro getting handed out like candy and KHD Programs in general hitting really hard, invalidating a big part of their defenses. So you're usually better off not running an AHD on HIs which makes them invulnerable to Maestro and KHDs in general. Oblivion isn't half as much of a problem being less common, less deadly and non lethal.

    Generally speaking the downfall of AHDs is a triumvirate of too high cost, too few options without a target rich environment and too prevalent KHDs as common counters.

    Weirdly enough AHDs can be very much overpowered vs TAG/HI centered lists. A Cutter outside of Marker State has BTS6 to protect him from the very real threat of a 16 points Brawler and that's about it. POSSSESSION inducing Hacking Programs should flat out not exist for the sheer abuse potential controlling enemy troops brings (Possession should probably be changed to work more like Impetuous without direct control over the trooper). Instead of being very swingy I'd really like to see either more Upgrade Programs on AHDs (which would in turn make them not work like AHDs anymore) or streamlining their existing Profiles and adding a couple new ones that work against everything.
     
  8. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    I feel that TacAware on TAGs should have significantly impacted the value of AHD, but somehow that hasn’t inspired me to include AHDs in my lists. In principle, I am also in the camp „Take AHD if it fits the list/mission“, but in O-12 there aren‘t any AHDs that fully make sense to me since I have enough efficient anti TAG or HI weaponry.
     
  9. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    This makes AHDs viable enough to run in tactical window tournaments because people spend points cut from the imposed model limit on fancy units.
    And of course it may be a meta call if a lot of people around run Sphinxes, Tiks or Su Jians even in full format games.
     
    Xeurian likes this.
  10. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    I always pick AHD on at least one of my tournement lists. They are prety strong against HI/TAG, and as a button pushers they are pretty good ( +3 in most missions, a lot of classificed objectives).

    This ofc beacuse my faction(Yu Jing) have some not expensive AHD with some ki d of natural protection (camo or HOLO 1) along with a very good porfiles with KHD to help them.


    +1 to this option.

     
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  11. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    In general I prefer HD & KHD, but I do like the Barid because of the upgrade. Its a great way to deal with guys with high BTS (Tags & Achilles)
     
  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot would be changed if they made it that KHD does NOT count for the taking of Remotes.
     
  13. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    The easier way is too make the KHD expensive and the AHD cheaper. Appart some teaks to programs to make the AHD a bit usfull against units from Ariadna or tohaa for example. (yes i know spootlight exist but come on, now is weak as hell).
     
    DaRedOne likes this.
  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    EXILE!! If the AHD had this I'd take it all of the time!
     
    Tourniquet likes this.
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    NO! We don't need more ISO causing effects! No no no! AHD needs something that only works on non-Hackable targets or that is worse than what what they already have when targeting Hackable targets.

    Or supportware for the benefit of your own HI/TAGs
     
  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Maybe a less crippling version, that just kicks the targeted member from the fireteam without slapping them with ISO.

    Keep SWC costs the same (Due to the AHD being more widely applicable than the KHD) and switch the normal points costs.

    Not really a lot of people take a base 17-19 point line infantry HD for buff programs anyway, so it would either not change, or we'd see more of those instead of an increase in AHD use.




    The main issue for the AHD is more systemic than people being reluctant to take their prey (big expensive hackable stuff) because they exist, and at the same time people not taking the AHD because it had an actual counter developed for it. It's that the nature of the game is more orders more better most of the time which leads to a preference for the dirt cheap and disposable who are often unhackable (which in theory should be less good than their hackable counterparts as being significantly superior in survivability and offensive capabilities, though this design seems to have been thrown out a window as of late.), meaning that they have very little to do outside of spotlight and mess with the occasional REM. It also doesn't help that the hackables that do get taken have ways to completely circumvent unlinked AHDs (Stealth, Marker state, etc), or make any attempt have low odds of succeeding (Tinbots + support ware).
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Exile would be OP on an AHD. What you actually want is something that only works on the active turn and doesn't invalidate Fireteams entirely. You want something that requires a player to activate exploit a temporary advantage against a defensive Fireteam.

    My preference for this is:

    CLAW-2. Solvent. Short Skill.

    B2 DAM16 or B1 +3 ATK WIP DAM16 (numbers would need to be playtested).

    Requirement: Target is a member of a Fireteam or group that otherwise follows Fireteam rules, such as a member of a Troupe.

    Effects: On a failed BTS roll the target of the attack fails the Final Coherency Check. Note Reference Troopers, such as Team Leaders, are not affected as they cannot fail a Coherency check.

    This means that:
    * It's a coin toss vs Reset (WIP13 vs a WIP13 BTS0 target it will work 54% (B2 version) or 46% (B1 version) of the time, not counting Failed Guts). So it's usable but it doesn't immediately invalidate defensive Fireteams.
    * It can't be used in ARO so doesn't threaten the active use of Fireteams (something that is already hard enough).
    * Because it's requires a BTS roll both High BTS and Fairy Dust are good defenses against it.
    * This means that mixed-Fireteams of low cost, low WIP, low BTS troopers are particularly vulnerable to it (ie it exploits the vulnerability of link fillers)
    * Because Reference Troopers cannot fail a Coherency check with themselves it won't be able to target Team Leaders and so won't generally break a Fireteam on its own.
    * Because it's an attack that causes a BTS roll it causes a Guts check, so using it to isolate (small-i) and then kill ARO pieces is not trivial.
    * Because of how Fireteam Integrity works a model affected by Solvent will rejoin the Fireteam at the start of their next active turn, so it's only a temporary window you need to make use of.

    Basically it's a relatively inefficient way to open a hole vs an oppressive linked ARO without needing Zero-Vis. It provides more options but doesn't make removing the ARO trivial (you're probably at ~3 orders to get it to work, so the Fireteam ARO is still providing good value to your opponent).

    It's not something that I'd use all the time. But vs top-tier AROs or in support of a primary attack piece that doesn't work well vs Sixth Sense 2 I can see a role for it: it's another tool. VS a Hackable ARO I'm more likely to use Oblivion (more permanent effect) or Carbonite (works better at setting them up to be permanently dealt with).

    N.B. I don't see this as the only necessary change to make AHDs more viable. I see it as part of a general drive to make Hacking more universally useful (so things like making Spotlight an ARO or removing Guided from the game and making U-Turn affect all Spec Fire vs targets outside of ZOC). A lot of Hacking's problem is it has massive power-spikes vs particular targets but otherwise is often kinda shit: by making it more universally useful you counter the 'I'm playing Aridna so you wasted your points'. However to balance this you probably need to balance this by reducing the spikes (Possession in particular could do with toning done. And I'd err to making Targeted less powerful but easier to achieve).

    I'd also make 'ignores Firewalls' a particular skill rather than part of KHDs. This would make KHDs less of an 'I win' vs most other *HDs while allowing buffs to particular Hackers that need it. You could probably make this what Maestro does, because that program is fucked.
     
    #37 inane.imp, Dec 18, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I'd like to see POS restricted to AHD and HD+ and as UPGRADES, the fact that the basic device has it means it's way too prevalent.
     
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  19. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    I love AHD, and generally prefer them over standard hacking devices. Usually it's a Brawler AHD in any of my NA2 forces (cheapest AHD in the game, easy access to SSL2), the Ekdromoi in Steel Phalanx (can force some ugly decisions, and has stealth), Fraacta/Samaritan/Shrouded/Zerat in my CA (sectorial dependent)... and now that I'm starting MO I'm a little disappointed that both of my options are 50+ points for one, haha. I've had great luck with Ninja AHD in Ikari, which is often disregarded, but it's still a TO infiltrator with a combi rifle, more than capable of hunting down enemy troops, then causing massive headaches for hackable targets as well. For my StarCo, a Bandit AHD can make a target choose between getting hacked, and getting shot with adhesive.

    They're an incredibly hard counter to some of the most powerful units in the game, and can handle enemy REMs without having to get in LOF. If you can get one with Sixth Sense you're going to cause nightmares for a lot of armies trying to get through your repeater net, if you it supported with own KHD as well, you're golden.

    That said, I do not think they're perfect and could greatly benefit from an additional support program. Even a stronger spotlight would be sufficient, , something that gives them at least a little utility when facing unhackable armies. Alternatively, take Cybermask away from the KHD and give it to the AHD, just something that is useful and not dependent on the enemy army.
     
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  20. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Or just give it to the AHD, the KHD has an even narrower focus than the AHD and would need something to make it also not dependant on the enemy army.
     
    Savnock likes this.
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